[piva00]

> Now, why don't people use the same analogy for Russia starting that war?

Because a war of invasion and annexation is something we've learned since WW2 that won't ever be tolerated in Europe again, history has shown why.

> Let's take a step back and ask a basic question - who escalated this all?

Pretty easy: Putin and Russia. First 2008, then 2014 and a full-scale invasion in 2022. Russia chose to invade a neighbouring country in 2008 (Georgia, hope you remember it), Russia decided to escalate that and annex Crimea in 2014. Russia shadow-invaded Ukraine in 2014 (or have you forgotten all the military personnel wearing Russian gear that went "on vacation" to Donbass and Crimea?). Russia downed a civilian airplane in 2014.

Or isn't any of that escalation?

> Who benefits from this war?

Very good question, if the war ended in 3 days as it was Putin's fantasy who would have benefited from this war?

As it didn't end in 3 days, no one is really benefiting from this except the military industry in multiple countries, mostly in Europe, which didn't have to arm themselves for decades of relative peace.

> Who pours money there?

All the Western countries are pouring money in there, to fend off an invasion, to keep the sovereignty of a state, a thing that wasn't really required to be taken care of since the end of WW2.

> Why is nobody asking these questions?

Because they are fucking dumb questions posed by Russian propaganda, that's why.

[throwawaymedia]

Ok, smarty. Why was there a conflict in Georgia? What were the events that led to it?

> Russia decided to escalate that and annex Crimea in 2014

Putin CLEARLY said that he will annex Crimea if X. What is that X?

[piva00]

If you want to expand on your points, please be clear and expand on them. Asking me to answer rhetorical questions as some kind of bizarre argumentation mechanism is tiresome and clearly against the kind of discussions I expect to be fostered on Hacker News.

Either do your own work and expand your argumentation so myself and others can properly reply or stop with this bullshit, it's boring to have to interact with this.

Also, by the guidelines, use emphasis like this, ALL CAPS is frowned upon on this forum. Thank you very much.

[throwawaymedia]

I intentionally asked you these questions so that you could answer the main question by yourself.

Russia has always been reluctant to NATO–the expansion was one of the main topics post-USSR crash.

Munich, 2007-Putin gives a massive speech on NATO. In the speech Putin blames the US on the expansion and clearly states that NATO is not welcomed next to the borders of Russia. He asks the west an important question: "since the USSR no longer exists, who is the enemy? If there is no enemy, then the NATO should be either dissolved or repurposed." Early next year, despite his comments and concerns the US welcomes Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO. What's the reaction of Putin? The US does not want to partnership and belittles his concerns. That year Putin said: "Ok, if they want Ukraine, they won't get Crimea". That was 2008. The decision to annex Crimea was a _reaction_ to the NATO's expansion.

I can keep going and going, but at the end of the day the core problem is NATO. Later, the director of FBI said that welcoming Ukraine and Georgia to NATO was the biggest mistake the US has made within the past several decades. That comment was made before the war started.

This is a proxy war started by the US. I won't be surprised if Ukraine/FTX drama is real. There is a huge chance it's all real, because Biden kept telling us that there were no deals between his son and Ukraine. Eventually, emails between Biden's son and Ukrainian oligarchs were cryptographically verified (DKIM records) and confirmed to be real. So Biden was _clearly_ lying. So, I'm sure there are more lies and FTX could be one of them.

One important note to add.

In January 2022, Putin asked the US to confirm if the expansion continues, because otherwise he'll invade Ukraine. The response of the US: "Yes". That is why everyone knew about the war-Biden, Putin, Zelenskyy. Everyone except the citizens of Ukraine. According to Ukrainian government and their public announcement - they knew about the war, but had to make a tough decision to keep it all in secret.

[_kbh_]

> I can keep going and going, but at the end of the day the core problem is NATO

Ah yes the core problem is the defensive alliance, not the country that continually attempts to annex and invade post soviet states.

> This is a proxy war started by the US.

Ah yes I keep forgetting the US forced Russia to invade and then after that they even forced Russia to rape and torture Ukrainian children.

My only question for you is how can you support this war given the countless documented and even caught on video atrocities that the Russians commit?.

[throwawaymedia]

> defensive alliance

against whom?

> not the country that continually attempts to annex and invade post soviet states

when? post the NATO expansion?

> Ah yes I keep forgetting the US forced Russia to invade and then after that they even forced Russia to rape and torture Ukrainian children.

This is a play of words. I can say the same about my fellow Ukrainian soldiers - it's just not in prime time.

> My only question for you is how can you support this war given the countless documented and even caught on video atrocities that the Russians commit?.

I _do not_ support the war. That is a misleading assumption. What about the countless atrocities that the Ukrainians commit? Those are f*cking public as well.

[_kbh_]

> against whom?

The Russian Federation, the country that since its existence started in 1991 has invaded.

- Chechnya - Georgia - Moldova - Ukraine

And continues upto right now, to threaten every country under the sun with nuclear annihilation merely for _helping_ Ukraine.

> when? post the NATO expansion?

NATO keeps gaining members because Russia keeps invading countries, it's the exact reason Finland and Sweden are now joining.

This in no way justifies Russias brutal war.

> I _do not_ support the war. That is a misleading assumption. What about the countless atrocities that the Ukrainians commit? Those are f*cking public as well.

Then I suppose you want Russia to leave Ukraine then, and stay out of Ukraine?.