[program_whiz]

Not to be pedantic, but smoking is actually the new smoking. Its just now being normalized through weed (which is rationalized as healthy or cool) and vaping (which is seen as less harmful than smoking cigarettes). The sheer number of smoke shops has exploded.

[adastra22]

Yeah it really bugs me how inconsiderate weed and vaping smokers can be. I’ve had weed smokers casually walk by my family blowing smoke everywhere without care, like this was the 1950’s. In a sense this is even worse as not only did I not agree to me or my kids breathing in this cancerous cloud of smoke, but it is psychoactive too.

[thefaux]

I'm with you that we should consider clean air a human right. Personally, I find vehicular exhaust a much bigger problem than weed smoke though.

[dumpsterlid]

Yah the thing is weed smokers know a small bit of weed smoke is nearly harmless compared to an equivalent bit of smoke from a tobacco smoker. It is absolutely still inconsiderate but as far as I know there is little evidence that second hand weed smoke inhalation is much of a threat to anyone. Vehicular exhuast is most definitely far more of a health threat

[bsder]

> It is absolutely still inconsiderate but as far as I know there is little evidence that second hand weed smoke inhalation is much of a threat to anyone.

There is no reason to believe that weed smoke is any better or worse than cigarette smoke. Burnt plant matter is burnt plant matter and contains lots of garbage--most of which isn't good for anybody.

The only difference nowadays is that a lot of people consume both nicotine and THC using vaping and concentrated liquid. This is probably less damaging in terms of secondhand smoke as the temperature is lower and the goal is vaporization rather than oxidation.

[eurasiantiger]

Only one of these combustibles contains nicotine and the resulting nitrosamines.

[latchkey]

> There is no reason to believe that weed smoke is any better or worse than cigarette smoke.

It is impossible to say one way or another as the internet is full of both sides of opinions. It is easy to find articles that say that weed smoking isn't as bad as cigarette smoke. I personally don't trust either side though.

But, from a logical point of view, they have very different compounds in them, so there must be some sort of difference.

[bitxbitxbitcoin]

With new research showing that vehicular tire wear being an even worse polluter.

[n8henrie]

I hadn't thought of cannabis consumption as being unequivocally associated with cancer risk.

I haven't paid much attention, but there was a pretty big JAMA paper a decade or so ago that didn't demonstrate much risk at something like "a joint per day for 40 years" level consumption.

Vaping may well have its own -- perhaps even greater -- risks, but I hadn't assumed propylene glycol to be particularly carcinogenic. Is it? CDC says doesn't seem to be raising major red flags: https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/ToxFAQs/ToxFAQsDetails.aspx?faqid=1...

Certainly not an area of expertise for me, I'd always thought of it as closer to a fog machine at a Halloween party than inhaling burning pieces of ash. Other than the vitamin e (?) associated illnesses a few years ago, is there good reason to think otherwise?

[adastra22]

Smoking causes cancer. Not tobacco. Not marijuana. Inhaling smoke causes cancer, pretty much independent of what is being burnt. (Though obviously some substances are even worse still.)

For some reason people think it is tobacco that causes lung cancer, and therefore joints are safe/healthy. Ridiculous. It is inhaling all that ash that gives you lung and throat cancer.

Vaping avoids the carcinogens of cigarette smoke, but likely carries its own risks. As you mention it's like breathing in a Halloween/stage smoke. But why do you think that is safe to do?

Ultimately if the air is smokey, it contains particulate matter. That particulate matter is not good for your lungs, no matter what it is.

[bilegeek]

Smokeless tobacco does cause cancer:

[1]https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...

[2]https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/t...

[3]https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/smok...

[eurasiantiger]

Not all smokeless tobacco does, such as Swedish snus.

[beebmam]

The amount of combusted material that one is exposed to makes a big difference in cancer rates (and other disease rates).[1]

I imagine that this is orders of magnitude lower for marijuana smokers than tobacco smokers, especially in this era with most flower being >20% THC by mass.

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6235683/

[midoridensha]

The reason weed is less cancerous than tobacco is because weed smokers typically smoke far less total volume of plant matter than tobacco smokers. Cigarette smokers light up many times every day. Most weed smokers only use it recreationally on an occasional basis, because it's not as addictive.

[n8henrie]

> Ultimately if the air is smokey

You seem to be conflating "looks smokey" with particulate matter, which I suspect is generally reasonable but perhaps not in all contexts. Water vapor can cause the air to look "smokey." If you go outside an a 5º day and exhale, does your exhaled breath contain more particulate matter than if you did so on a 50º day?

[muwtyhg]

Not all marijuana vaping is done using vape pens containing Propylene Glycol. You can vaporize concentrate, which doesn't include any sort of additive and is tested for pesticides and heavy metals in places like California. PG just helps the concentrate "flow" into the wick of the vape pen. You also don't need to use a vape pen where the heating element is exposed to the airflow of the concentrate, reducing the chance of heavy metals being released.

There are also vaporizers that just pass hot air over marijuana flower.

[imiric]

> Ultimately if the air is smokey, it contains particulate matter. That particulate matter is not good for your lungs, no matter what it is.

This reads like medieval miasmatic theory.

In other news, breathing and living is the #1 cause of death.

The quality of the air you breathe is what affects your risk of developing cancer. Burning tobacco releases the most amount of harmful particles, and even then, many people spend years inhaling it without ever developing cancer.

Vaporizing marijuana is done by exposing it to much lower temperatures, which doesn't release the same particles as burning. Thus, it's not the same kind of smoke.

Additionally, marijuana doesn't have the chemicals linked to cancer to begin with. Tobacco even if ingested can increase the risk of cancer.

But ultimately, everything you do, from the city you live in, to your household environment, to your genetic predisposition and lifestyle choices, affects your risk of developing cancer. Living is a balance act between these risk sources and actually enjoying your life.

Vaping marijuana is probably not great for you, but many people do so for many years without negative consequences, and the risks compared to smoking tobacco are much, much lower. All of this is handwavy, of course, since the effects of marijuana have been historically poorly researched.

But making a blanket statement that all smoke causes cancer is fearmongering at best, and objectively wrong at worst.

[adastra22]

Any smoke causes cancer. Anything which is not burned fully to completion (which is anything burnt outside of an oxygen-rich furnace) contains polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. These aromatic compounds bind to DNA reverse transcriptase during cellular replication, causing a mutation. Accumulation of mutations over time causes cancer. QED.

[imiric]

You're repeating your absolutist take while ignoring any sense of nuance.

No, smoke doesn't _cause_ cancer. Breathing in anything other than clean air _may increase_ the risk of developing cancer, but there's no certainty that if you e.g. suck on a tailpipe you'll catch the cancer.

There's a substantial difference from inhaling the smoke from combusting tobacco laced with hundreds of harmful chemicals, and inhaling the vapor from exposing the cannabis flower to much lower temperatures. How much difference exactly? I'll wait for more research to be done to draw my conclusions, but you go ahead and think it's the same thing.

> Accumulation of mutations over time causes cancer.

Again, the keyword you're ignoring is "risk". Our cells go through millions of mutations throughout our lifetime, and there are many factors that determine each person's propensity towards cancer. The best way of minimizing that risk is by living in a bubble, but some people choose to live in polluted cities, drive ICE cars, enjoy eating grilled meat, and inhaling marijuana and even cigarette smoke. Just because you might be risk-averse to partake in any of this, doesn't mean that we should dump all of it under the same "causes cancer" category.

[Jarwain]

There are studies[0] indicating that PG/VG as vapor cause damage & inflammation to the lungs, independently of nicotine. The FDA's statement of GRAS mainly applies to PG used as a food additive, not necessarily it being inhaled as vapor. So, seems like potential damage from long term use, not necessarily on the scale of smoke but not necessarily great for you either.

[0]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31483291/

[bitxbitxbitcoin]

There is vaping of the dry herb itself or or concentrates all of which involve zero Propelyne Glycol or Vegetable Glycerin or Vitamin E. Very much the more popular trend in weed vaping that has nothing to do with anti vaping propogandas and is unfortunately ignored by those that don’t partake.

That is where most weed smokers end up or plan to end up.

[minitoar]

Minor nitpick: nicotine is also psychoactive.

[adastra22]

True, but in a relatively minor or even positive way. I similarly don’t get upset when someone brews coffee or tea next to me, even though I actually can’t be that close due to a medicinal interaction. I sometimes have to leave the room, but that’s not their fault.

Weed makes driving more dangerous, lowers motivation and focus, etc. You want to do that to unwind, fine. But do it at home or in a designated smoking area I can know to avoid.

[minitoar]

Nicotine gives me anxiety.

[13of40]

I was going to mention something along these lines. I quit smoking 15 years ago because I realized I just felt dirty, sick, and depressed after a cigarette, no matter how much the addiction primed me to think otherwise leading up to it.

[haileys]

To clarify, are you claiming that nicotine's psychoactive effects are minor or even positive?

[adastra22]

When operating a moving vehicle, in comparison to THC? Yes, absolutely. That was the context in which I was speaking. Nicotine calms nerves while improving focus. There's a reason people like smoking tobacco.

Marijuana, on the other hand, slows your reaction time and hampers decision making, as well as (in a small percentage of people, but including me) triggers depression, paranoia, and psychosis. Although it is legal to have and to smoke where I live, you still can't do it while driving a car or in public spaces. Doesn't seem to stop people though :\

[bitxbitxbitcoin]

Consumption of marijuana in public places is perfectly legal depending on your jurisdiction. Allowing smoking of marijuana wherever smoking of nicotine is allowed seems “only fair.” Examples in the USA include Oklahoma and New York.

On the other hand. The impairment you are talking about has been shown to affect non regular users more.[0] and to be negligible to regular users.

I wouldn’t want to be driving on the road with someone after they smoked their very first cigarette. I remember what that was like the first time I inhaled. It’s all relative. Marijuana can be less psychoactive than nicotine depending on the person and their tolerances. Just anecdata but people also report some cultivars of marijuana calms nerves while improving focus.

[0] https://norml.org/news/2022/06/16/study-regular-cannabis-con...

[DocTomoe]

This may be selection bias, but the people I knew who consumed weed were too relaxed to consider driving.

I do think we can agree that the weed <-> tobacco comparison is not very useful, as weed is more closely comparable to alcohol.

[D13Fd]

> positive

You lost me there.

[bitxbitxbitcoin]

Not to be pendantic, but 1950s would be if that was happening indoors. I assume this happens to you and your family outdoors.

[breezedream]

Only if they live in a detached house. In my experience it’s rapidly become incredibly prevalent indoors in apartments in both North America and Western Europe, even with solid construction. It’s very good at traveling through buildings, vents, etc.

[googlryas]

Smoke shops have exploded but it isn't clear to me that there is higher availability - every convenience store in the US sold cigarettes and most still do. Even pharmacies like CVS/Walgreens used to sell them. I think just now you have dedicated storefronts for certain types of smoking products.

[bogomipz]

I think the difference is that cigarettes and packaging were almost completely uniform - the same size and footprint regardless of brand. As such they were relatively easy for stores to maintain. I think the sheer variety and variability of vaping hardware and packaging almost requires a dedicated smoke shop to be able to service customers.

[reshie]

interestingly you had head shops(paraphernalia) before legalization. everyone knew what they where for but nothing illegal until it was used for that specifically. you can even buy crack pipes in some of the seedier neighborhood stores.

[hardwaresofton]

Yeah, I thought this was going to be about vape pens.

God bless humanity, almost got rid of the vice completely only to have a reincarnation absolutely plunge a new generation into addiction.

[scarface74]

The vice was the war on drugs that was disproportionately applied to minorities. Legalizing weed is taking one weapon out of the arsenal of the police state.

[mc32]

In other countries it was applied to their majorities (who could be minorities in the US). The war on drugs was not a U.S.-only thing. It was worldwide. Because it was a losing battle (products easier to grow manufacture AND transport, they’ve pretty much all realized it’s a losing battle —with some major exceptions like Japan and Singapore who still take drugs seriously and will incarcerate for small amounts.

[hardwaresofton]

So I generally agree with all these opinions but… I was talking about cigarettes?

Also “vice” in the meaning of a bad habit, not the drug squad.

[scarface74]

Same thing, the NYPD killed a man for selling a cigarettes

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/eric-garner-dies...

[hardwaresofton]

Again I fully agree on the broad points but felt a little bit like shoehorning an only slightly related topic in.

But meh, awareness of those topics could probably stand to be higher anyway

[dsfyu404ed]

They killed him for daring to thumb his nose at the authority of the state by being a bootlegger. Cigarettes just happen to be what he sold.

At the end of the day this is the kind of random violence that backs up every mundane law.

[standardUser]

"Smoking" in the common vernacular means regularly smoking cigarettes, which is a nicotine addiction in most cases. Comparing nicotine addiction to weed, which has it's own very different abuse profile, only because they often share a method of ingestion, makes no sense.

Vaping nicotine has indeed replaced a lot of the consumption of old fashioned cigarettes. But that has nothing to do with weed.

[tonymet]

very good point

[bergenty]

Vaping is significantly less dangerous than smoking, it’s not just some “false” perception. Without added flavors you can argue it is completely harmless and in some ways beneficial (nicotine has several health benefits).

[myshpa]

> Vaping is significantly less dangerous than smoking

Agree.

> Without added flavors you can argue it is completely harmless

No, it's not. Filling your lungs with fine particulate matter/grease is stupid. You can still get COPD, some do. That's pretty shitty way to go.

[bergenty]

What grease? The base is vegetable glycerin that hospitals use in their nebulizers, used in smoke generators at concerts and has been repeatedly proven to be absolutely safe for human inhalation.