[maigret]

People fear their living standards will have to be degraded to that level. It’s not true though.

Those country comparisons are totally idiotic because they produce the wrong fears. Example: look at that table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di... , Switzerland is 4.8 tons and a third of the US. I like the US but Switzerland is another scale for quality of life on most metrics.

Air travel is one of the few things that’s hard to fix, but for example I can’t understand why everyone won’t buy an EV, that’s basically 99% the same as an ICE car and even better in many aspects. Probably less meat, that will make food cheaper and people will live longer. Else all pretty much the same. Hell, nothing can beat renewables at the moment. They are 4-5x cheaper than fossil fuels. So we’ll be richer with renewables, well save trillions in insurance and I have no clue how people can still thing fossil fuels are the way. Inform yourselves and start to think about the near future, not the past. Stop being a passive fossil fuel lobby repeater.

[eastbound]

I don’t fear QoL being degraded (If it’s necessary, it’s cool for our children); I fear the loss of meritocracy, as I have never seen any other model work. I also fear it’s competing countries that fuel the climate fight in my country to persuade us of consuming less, while we’ll never be able to have an impact on them, even through international agreements.

So basically, the “China is just dis-industrializing Europe, by convincing us to self-sabotage our industries” argument.

Last point, I’ve never seen scientific studies used in politics that were not massively forged.

1. Fear of meritocracy 2. Fear of countries not negotiating an equalitarian deal 3. Fear of the awful science of “that camp” (and I know exactly what 3 arguments you’ll oppose, so, don’t bother with the direct answer, please assume everything you want to answer is already understood and incorrect, and go straight to a second level of answers).

[maigret]

What are the 3 arguments? Are you referring to IP theft when you mention meritocracy?

I know the current problems around manufacturing a little bit. My reading is that, yes, we can’t get out of fossil immediately, but I think we mostly failed to prepare and the current situation shows us that renewables are significant more resilient than detractors rate them.

Also I think producing cheaper products by running on coal is a thing of the past. What happens though is that bureaucracy and pay is clearly lower in some countries. Every country has to build a strategy based on those facts. In Europe I’ve seen too many countries comfortable with the past results and thus failed to plan for the future. Then blamed it on other countries because it’s an easy target for deflecting failures as always.

[artonge]

You might have posted on the wrong comment because I don't think anything I wrote could have led you to believe that I am a "a passive fossil fuel lobby repeater." ;).

[maigret]

Indeed my comment was supporting yours and addressing mostly the grand parent. Sorry for mixing the messages into one…