[rmc]

they are much less likely to have their genitals mutilated as infants by fathers who do not like the way they look.

Female genital mutilation happens as well in some countries. And the majority of cases it's much worse than the male equivalent. FGM often results in all or part of the clitoris being removed. That would be like all or part of the glans of a penis being removed. (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation#Class...)

(As an aside, I think male genital mutilation happens more in the USA. Men in Europe of christian ethnicity don't usually get this done. Tis an odd the cultural practices)

[jcnnghm]

And the majority of cases it's much worse than the male equivalent. FGM often results in all or part of the clitoris being removed.

As a circumcised male, I generally believe that FGM is much worse than the male equivalent, even though it is much more rare in developed countries. At the same time, I wonder if the facts that most circumcised men have no basis for comparison, and that the procedure is so common, colors that bias. The foreskin has over 20,000 nerve endings whereas the clitoris only has about 8,000. Men that have undergone foreskin restorations sometimes report vastly improved sexual sensitivity and much more intense orgasms.

As I said, I believe the female variant is much worse, but it does cause me to pause and consider that this may be caused by female privilege. I cannot help but wonder if my belief that there would be outrage if roles were reversed is valid.

[wpietri]

Could you help me better understand the theory that circumcision results from female privilege?

Female genital mutilation is pretty explicitly about controlling female sexuality in a way that makes women more obedient male property.

Circumcision, though, seems to be a religious thing from a very patriarchal culture. The modern justification for which is hygiene and/or health, and sometimes it's definitely medically necessary.

So I'm not seeing how circumcision is evidence of a gender power differential.

[jcnnghm]

Could you help me better understand the theory that circumcision results from female privilege?

It doesn't result from female privilege, it is considered a non-issue and discounted because of female privilege. There is plenty of evidence to support that, including the fact that FGM is considered a larger issue although it has effectively been eliminated in the west.

Consider this, if a father wanted to have his newborn daughters' clitoral hood removed because he didn't like the way it looked, he would be rightly ignored. If a mother wants to have her newborn son circumcised because she doesn't like the way uncut penises look, he will be circumcised. No matter how you want to slice it, both are genital mutilations. The difference is, one is ridiculous, uncommon and illegal, and the other is ridiculous, common, legal, and widespread.

Female genital mutilation is pretty explicitly about controlling female sexuality in a way that makes women more obedient male property.

It does happen almost exclusively in Islamic areas, and some religious leaders do mandate it, so I'm not too sure about that. In any case, religion is a poor reason to justify mutilation. Circumcision was performed on male slaves to make them "less likely to rape white women", so I also am not too sure about the underlying reason for male circumcision. Both practices seem kind of barbaric.

Circumcision, though, seems to be a religious thing from a very patriarchal culture. The modern justification for which is hygiene and/or health, and sometimes it's definitely medically necessary.

The hygiene and health arguments are bogus, and have been proven to be bogus. If women were having parts of sexual organs removed for "hygiene" reasons, it would not continue for a moment.

So I'm not seeing how circumcision is evidence of a gender power differential.

The fact that nobody questions male circumcision which is forced on over 50% of males born in the United States today, while FGM, which is much less widespread largely occurring only in Africa and the middle east, garners considerable attention provides evidence of a power differential. It clearly shows that male health issues are undervalued, even in relation to obscure female issues, reinforcing the matriarchal view that men are inherently less valuable than women.

[wpietri]

I agree with you that ritual circumcision is dubious and I'd be happy to see everybody give it up (except when medically necessary, which happens sometimes), but am not persuaded that it's relevant to this discussion.

[...] it is considered a non-issue and discounted because of female privilege.

That is a statement you have not supported. For it to be true, there'd have to be some evidence that women generally were forcing it on men. Historically women couldn't force anything on men, and the people performing the operation were mohels and doctors, almost exclusively male.

I guess it's possible that there could have been some recent reversal in power, with women picking up pressure for circumcision and men slacking off. But I've seen not the slightest bit of evidence for this.

Given that, this seems like a typical "but what about meeeee" male response to a discussion of male privilege.

[jcnnghm]

For it to be true, there'd have to be some evidence that women generally were forcing it on men.

So in order for something to be privilege it must be forced on the other gender? So lets examine some items on the male privilege checklist against that standard:

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true.

Did men force women to accept affirmative action which in some cases does give women jobs that they would have not gotten if they were competing on merits alone? Take a look at this, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/science/17comp.html?_r=1&#.... It appears that Carnegie Mellon lowered entrance standards to admit more women into the computer science program. Is a man that isn't admitted obligated to believe that sex has nothing to do with it? Why is it acceptable to reject more-qualified men in favor of less-qualified women? That does not seem very fair.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

And men force this onto women? It's not other women? Is it not acceptable to point out that women who don't have children will be the first women in a line of women going back to the dawn of humanity not to have children, or that only about 40% of men ever procreated, versus a significantly hire percentage of women.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

Men force women to call other women's femininity into question?

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

Men force women to vote for men, and to not run for office? Women are the majority of the population. Is there some invisible man-field that is preventing them from voting every single elected man out of office within the next 6 years?

15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

Men force women not to form organizations too?

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

Men must also force women not to produce their own media.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

The vast majority of teachers are female. Please explain how men force female teachers to pay more attention to male students.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.”

Men force women to tolerate promiscuous men?

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.

This is fantastic. I had no idea that I was partly responsible for making women spend a lot of time and money grooming.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)

Isn't this phenomenon actually a female creation? All that stuff was illegal, then feminists demanded extra-special protection, so a whole slew of legislation was passed. Now that protection is because of male privilege?

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

Wow, men force women to have periods. I had no idea. I'll try harder to not do that. Or did men just make up PMS to have an excuse to denigrate women? That doesn't seem as likely since it's been scientifically proven to exist.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

Men also forced women to be the only gender capable of producing children?

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

Did those evil men also force women to have less response to visual sexual stimuli? Could that be why romance novels exist, and men don't read them.

43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

What a farce. Women commit the majority of domestic violence, and are more likely to use weapons. Twice as many men as women are the victims of severe physical domestic abuse.

It seems that most of the list is an artifact of feminism itself, or has very clear biological or evolutionary origins. Exactly the same could be said of the female privilege associated with not being expendable.

[wpietri]

Oooooohkay.

You obviously aren't trying to have an actual discussion here. This confirms my suspicion that you are not interested in actually reducing sexism (anti-female and anti-male alike) and instead are just derailing the discussion. I'm done.