[bismuthcrystal]

So what is the point of all this? If done by Ukrainians, what military objective does is accomplish?

Are we supposed to track down the people responsible for the Tomahawk cruise missile program as well? I mean, this piece does not make any sense to me. There is a difference between the people that make weapons and those that use them.

[euos]

It’s the people who program the missiles. People who knowingly attack power infrastructure in a cold country (my parents spent 12 hours without the power today). People who make mistakes that make missiles struck residential buildings. Investigators said he contacted them and they were completely nonchalant about the result of their work. He used the term “banality of evil”.

[Aeolun]

I find it hard to blame the Russians doing this especially much. At least I’d have to blame the developers of the hellfire missile and reaper drone just as much.

[euos]

Are you Russian yourself? "Especially much" seems like literal translation from Russian ("особо много"). This would explain intentional stupidity.

Developers of the weapons may say they do not want to hit civilian targets. These people know full well what they are doing. They are pure inexcusable evil.

[Aeolun]

I’m Dutch. Not sure if there’s any overlap in the language, but I think it’s a term I only use in English.

You have to be at least some level of patriotic to work on weapons systems, so it’s more likely they’ll call it regrettable that it’s sometimes necessary to use against civilians and call it a day.

The reason I say I don’t blame them in particular is because I can see the appeal of working on things that blow shit up. Even better if you believe they’re your enemies (would I have issues making weapons that drive the Russians out of Ukraine?).

It’s because I have faith in my government. And as ridiculous and caused by propaganda as it may be, that is likely the same for the Russians.

From my perspective they’re evil, but I doubt they see themselves that way.

[nradov]

It's not a matter of blame. In this situation, everyone contributing to the war effort is a target. Israeli covert operations have repeatedly conducted targeted killings against key civilian employees in the Iranian defense industry. Nothing personal, just degrading an adversary's capabilities.

[IYasha]

if only Iranian...

[brtkdotse]

> At least I’d have to blame the developers of the hellfire missile and reaper drone just as much.

I mean… yes?!

[l3uwin]

You're so close to getting the point

[totalZero]

Perhaps the engineers who dedicate their time and creativity to the expert manufacture of tools for destruction are not blameless.

[Aeolun]

Eh? They likely believe better tools of destruction make for shorter wars and saves their soldier’s lives.

[bearmode]

Have to be utterly insane to believe that, or lack absolutely any knowledge of war history from the last century.

[SturgeonsLaw]

The people who make missiles are complicit, and are partially responsible for the deaths that result from them. And yes, that raises awkward questions about the military industrial complex, and about other countries and people who are also doing it.

But it's basic cause and effect, some people built a missile, some people ordered its use, some people launched it at the target. All of them bear some portion of the responsibility for the end result, any other conclusion is not entirely honest.

[d0mine]

Are you ready to apply the same standard to the people who work on war drones at google? (my guess, not)

[pvaldes]

That would depend on how are used.

There are international laws regulating war, and the fact is that Russia toke great pleasure into violating each single one of them. Systematically. Deliberately. All while telling lies and jokes to inflict the greatest pain possible to the population. It is an spectacle absolutely hideous.

And now they wonder why aren't attracting any international sympathy lately

[prvit]

What drones developed by googlers are being used for terror campaigns against civilian infrastructure?

[wojciii]

Many of the missile strikes target civilian buildings and infrastructure (shopping malls, railway stations, markets) and are used to terrorise.

Most of the missile strikes have no military value, as Russia seems to withdraw from parts of Ukraine.

Perhaps showing the group responsible would make them think about what they are doing besides inputting coordinates.

[Synaesthesia]

The exact same thing could be said about the US, even worse.

[j-pb]

Exactly. The people remote controlling drones into civilians in Ukraine should be held accountable, just like the people that killed civilians with hellfire missiles in Afghanistan should be held accountable. As a german I'd also like to see the german politicians and officials that enabled these operations from german territory persecuted.

[prvit]

> The people remote controlling drones into civilians in Ukraine should be held accountable, just like the people that killed civilians with hellfire missiles in Afghanistan should be held accountable

Typical civilian deaths in Afghanistan would be e.g. families living with high ranking enemy combatants, totally incomparable with Russian forces bombing shopping malls in Ukraine.

At least the US cares enough to have a man in the loop when killing with their drones. Chair force killers actually have to watch and pull the trigger, not like the Russian missile programmers remotely destroying city block sized targets.

[bearmode]

>Typical civilian deaths in Afghanistan would be e.g. families living with high ranking enemy combatants, totally incomparable with Russian forces bombing shopping malls in Ukraine.

This is propaganda, they often kill indiscriminately, and often kill based on extremely flimsy intel. They later try to explain it with 'there was an enemy combatant there', but provide no evidence of that. It's the same crap the Israelis do.

The US has bombed multiple wedding parties, where there were no enemy combatants anywhere nearby. They killed 30 civillians in one instance, in an area which had been abandoned by enemy forces for months!

[j-pb]

> Typical civilian deaths in Afghanistan would be e.g. families living with high ranking enemy combatants, totally incomparable with Russian forces bombing shopping malls in Ukraine.

Except that that that's not true. [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]

Let's be clear, what's happening in Ukraine is abhorrent, but let's also not pretend that the west cares a lot less and even actively participates in atrocities when the victims are not as white.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_war...

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstri...

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haska_Meyna_wedding_party_airs...

3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airs...

4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruzgan_helicopter_attack

5: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_raid_on_Narang

6: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azizabad_airstrike

7: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granai_airstrike

8: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstri...

[_kbh_]

The Americans made a new type of non explosive payload for a missile to reduce collateral damage.

https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/how-tos/2021/08/26/the-...

The Russians target shopping centres with weapons designed to take out American aircraft carriers.

They aren’t really the same.

[IYasha]

I'd also generalize that "people" remotely controlling armies should be held accountable.

Since you're a german: I was reading hard to comeby chronicles and memoirs from before WW2 and there was this fact: russians and germans were close friends, people from military missions were calling each other brothers. This was frowned upon by the government... So, I'm saying, humans are generally peaceful and friendly, but are being manipulated. :(

[deanCommie]

I mean this is not the context to have this discussion, but yes, if another country operated like the US does, we would call many of it's actions "war crimes" and discussing the relative complicity of the "civilians" that make the missiles.

[Gibbon1]

They're legitimate military targets. Ukraine has every legal right to try to kill them.

[pifm_guy]

If you work on anything even distantly military related, it's a risk you take as part of the job. If your country loses any war/power struggle, the new incoming government will punish you for being involved in the military of the old government fighting against the incomers.

[DangitBobby]

I agree, it doesn't really make any sense to hunt these people down.

[pvaldes]

In a context of war crimes trial, it made all the sense.

If a missile is programmed to fall in a maternity full of pregnant women, they are necessary accomplices of a massive assassination. They could be lied about it the first couple of times. After nine full months of terrorism, "we didn't knew the consequences of our actions" is not reasonable

[egorfine]

It certainly does. I'm writing this in a cold apartment in Kiev with no electricity and very low cell signal.

[prvit]

How does it not?