[ben_w]

Why are you so certain?

To the best of my knowledge, the last time I consumed any meat (which is what you're agreeing with to begin, even though you later say the much more general "animal products" which includes milk), was on a 2015 trip to Kenya, where the cook somehow randomised the ingredients in everyone's sandwiches (I asked for a "cheese and pesto" sandwich, my cheese was switched with someone else's chicken), and the time before that was 2009, where my vegetarian lasagna was switched with someone else's beef lasagna.

Even with those accidents, twice in 13 years doesn't seem like a "you're delusional if you think you can go without" kind of a thing.

Also, full on vegans are a thing. I'm not one (cheese is too tempting), but it's not crazy like breatharians or whatever.

[dennis_jeeves1]

>Why are you so certain?

I feel obliged respond. I'll try and put a short useful response. ( It becomes a little tiring to give an elaborate, well thought out response when one repeatedly encounters what one sees as irrationality).

- I have _never_ see a vegan thrive (health wise) in the long run.

- Many 'honest' vegans admit occasionally binge eat animal products - in your case cheese.

- May 'vegans' lie outright

- There are lot of ex-vegans out there, some of them who were truly committed. Search for them on the web and you will find them.

- https://www.beyondveg.com/ has information from people who probably tried being vegans from the sixties. Grandpa may have some wisdom that you may not be aware of.

[uxcolumbo]

And here are some counter points:

Oldest known vegan - Dr Wareham (heart surgeon) - 104 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellsworth_Wareham

Athletes thriving on a plant-based diet: https://gamechangersmovie.com/

100s of physicians recommending a plant based diet: https://www.pcrm.org/

Vegan doesn't mean automatically being healthy. Vegan is mainly about being cruelty free as much as possible, as killing and exploiting animals is cruel.

By adopting a plant based whole food diet you can be healthy and at the same time reduce your carbon footprint and damage to our biosphere.

Just don't eat Pringles and drink Coke all day (technically being vegan).

[dennis_jeeves1]

All of that data is suspect. About 2 decades back I used to believe that that at lest some people can thrive without any animal products.

If you thought that a large number of experts (docs in this case) collectively cannot get it wrong , you are I have a different judgment to our fellow simians....

[uxcolumbo]

What data? I didn’t mention any data… and you didn’t you either btw.

I posted some examples negating your absolute statements.

Do some ppl need animal products because of medical reasons? Peobably.

But claiming that humans needs animal products to live and thrive is quite the statement. Several national health organisation say otherwise. They say a plant based diet can be healthy with careful planning. Are they wrong as well?

Some other anecdotal evidence… myself. I’m on a animal product free diet and did some blood work… my doc says I should continue doing whatever I’m doing.

[dennis_jeeves1]

>But claiming that humans needs animal products to live and thrive is quite the statement. Several national health organisation say otherwise. They say a plant based diet can be healthy with careful planning. Are they wrong as well?

Yes they are. If consensus is your only way you determine if a piece of information is correct, they you and I can never agree.

[uxcolumbo]

So you think various health organizations, like the NHS, Harvard Health, USDA, WHO etc are wrong?

If you ignore scientific evidence or medical consensus then yes I agree - no point continuing this discussion.

[ben_w]

> Many 'honest' vegans admit occasionally binge eat animal products - in your case cheese.

Don't call me a vegan. I'm vegetarian. That means choosing no meat, no more, no less.

It does rather look like you are unfamiliar with the difference, both from this response and your previous comment replying specifically to meat.

> Grandpa may have some wisdom that you may not be aware of.

I'm older than I think you think I am. And both my grandfathers died before I was born.

[dennis_jeeves1]

>Don't call me a vegan. I'm vegetarian. That means choosing no meat, no more, no less.

Partially my fault in the way I phrased my sentence. I was referring to vegans in general. Not you in particular. ( buddy, where's the benefit of doubt, if you assumed I did not know the difference?)

>I'm older than I think you think I am. And both my grandfathers died before I was born.

If you occasionally eat animal products you will survive(or even do well), Again my point is lost, my point being that there is more than a little to to be learnt from people who have attempted veganism for decades.

The delivery of my message may not be perfect or even crude, but the bare minimum information is there, including the link I put, where you will end up spending days if you are not familiar with aspects of nutrition. Look past me - and I'm sure if you are skeptical enough of any conventional nutritional wisdom, you will learn a _lot_ .