[alecb]

for those unaware, even in deep blue New York, Riker's has been run as a Guantanamo-style prison camp where there is no civilian oversight over conditions or corrections officers. to me, the most appalling aspect has been the amount of people locked up indefinitely over misdemeanors and thrown into gen pop to basically die

[ceejayoz]

> the most appalling aspect has been the amount of people locked up indefinitely over misdemeanors

Even worse than that, they're locked up indefinitely before trial.

https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/8/17/23310771/why-some-spend-ye...

> But several men have been on Rikers Island and in other city Department of Correction jails as their criminal cases snake their way through the court system for years — in one case a decade and counting — according to a list of the longest-serving detainees in city custody obtained by THE CITY.

[onemoresoop]

> Even worse than that, they're locked up indefinitely before trial.

Not painting with a large brush but a lot of them are very dangerous and it seems, with reform bail they let the door open to a lot of violent crime, at least here in NY it's shot up through the roof. I'm definitely for reform but reform done responsibly and not rushed either, because I could see this backfiring even worse.

[ceejayoz]

If they're "very dangerous", prove it. Ten years awaiting trial is simply unacceptable.

Bail reform in NY just means poor people have the same right to get out of jail while pending trial that rich people already had.

[onemoresoop]

> Ten years awaiting trial is simply unacceptable.

That is clearly wrong and should not happen. However, many dangerous violent criminals (recidivists) get bailed out and continue their crime sprees. That is clearly something that should not happen. I'm all for reforming this system but this should be done responsibly.

[jakelazaroff]

That's not a result of bail reform, though, [1]:

> The data now reflect: 2 percent of the nearly 100,000 cases related to the state’s changed bail laws, between July 2020 and June 2021, led to a rearrest on a violent felony while another case was pending. That’s down from nearly 4 percent from the prior data set.

> Less than one-half a percent of cases led to someone being rearrested for a violent felony with a firearm — or 429 cases.

[1] https://www.timesunion.com/state/article/GOP-calls-into-ques...

[ceejayoz]

> However, many dangerous violent criminals (recidivists) get bailed out and continue their crime sprees.

This is not a problem fixed by cash bail, though.

"You're dangerous and violent! If you have $5k we'll let you go home. If you're poor, enjoy Rikers for the next six months."

[freeone3000]

A lot of them are accused of being dangerous. They are not "dangerous" until actually convicted of a crime -- I do not hold an accusation alone as sufficient cause to imprison a human indefinitely.

[dmix]

They need to invest heavily in the prisons and jails, not just let them go as a short-term compromise. Investing in proper treatment of criminals would do a lot to reduce recidivism.

All of the actual solutions are hard and expensive but that's how it is. Thoughtlessly letting career criminals go so they commit 3 more crimes before the trial for the first one isn't the more compassionate move. To the net public at least.

Same deal with closing mental institutions in the 1980s without an alternative.

[glitcher]

Can anyone help explain how things like this have not been changed yet due to the direct violations of the constitution? What happened to: 1) right to a speedy trial, 2) innocent until proven guilty, 3) no cruel and unusual punishment?

It seems to me the criminal justice system is openly and flagrantly violating the constitution, and has been for a long time.

[muaytimbo]

Right, pretrial detention is clearly already at odds with the constitution, specifically "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures". Your person has been seized without conviction.

Eliminating pretrial detention would force prosecutors to ensure the right to a speedy trial if, in fact, the accused is dangerous.

[ceejayoz]

SCOTUS doesn't care.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2022/may/23/us-supreme-court...

> In a 6 to 3 ruling, the newly-dominant rightwing majority of the nation’s highest court barred federal courts from hearing new evidence that was not previously presented in a state court as a result of the defendant’s ineffective legal representation.

If they're comfortable executing innocents, they're unlikely to care about timely trials.

[chrisseaton]

> no civilian oversight over conditions or corrections officers

If there isn’t civilian oversight what is there? It’s nothing to do with the military is it?

[ceejayoz]

"Civilian" oversight means non-police in this context.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_oversight_of_law_enfo...

[spywaregorilla]

What does civilian oversight over conditions and corrections officers mean in practice?

[alecb]

it means that essentially the corrections officer union has gummed up any and all reforms passed through legislation (think video cameras in public areas, anti-violence training, etc.). this has led to a situation where there is a preventable suicide about once every 2 weeks in the prison and state officials are calling for federal intervention since they can't effectively change conditions; https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-man-dies-r...

[spywaregorilla]

That makes sense, thanks.

[jakelazaroff]

As a bare minimum, professional consequences and/or criminal charges when inmates die?

[muaytimbo]

Oversight could easily mean installing surveillance infrastructure to monitor guards as well as inmates. Making that public would offer even more accountability.

[ch4s3]

Repercussions when someone dies of exposure in solitary confinement while awaiting trial.

[jakearmitage]

> even in deep blue New York

What do you mean by that?

[ceejayoz]

That the progressive nature of a city's electorate generally doesn't reflect in its police/corrections forces; civilian oversight is severely limited and pushed back against. The NYPD was openly at war with it's theoretical executive, DiBlasio, including doxxing his daughter.

[muaytimbo]

I'm not sure it's a matter of political identity here, the police just push back against anything that makes them accountable, they want to be able to kill, maim, and hurt without being questioned.