[auxym]

I don't think it's satire.

STEM is pushed hard, but realistically, science and math dont have that great career prospects. For one thing, a PhD, and the 4-7 year opportunity cost that comes with it, is pretty much required to get anything more than a lab tech job.

After that PhD, where do you go? You can try for an insanely competitive tenure track faculty position. Or a very limited number of industry researcher jobs.

The E in STEM (traditional engineering) isn't exactly tech in terms of salaries and job availability, but it mostly guarantees paying the bills with a decent WLB after "just" a bachelor's.

[pdpi]

A PhD in maths is _incredibly_ valuable. Anything abstract algebra related, and the likes of the NSA are all over you. Anything numerical analysis related will find plenty of opportunities in finance, and the industry just calls statistics specialists "Data Scientists".

[cercatrova]

The NSA doesn't pay that much compared to the opportunity cost of the wage lost getting that PhD. Their salaries are capped by government standards, they can't pay above that.

[auxym]

Yeah, to be fair, my perspective is from Canada, which I probably should have mentioned.

I mean, we do have the RCMP and Bay Street, but I don't think it's comparable (in number of positions, salaries offered, etc) to NSA and Wall Street.

[insightcheck]

I heard that if you studied math with applications to computer science, you can find great opportunities with technology too (if not moving to the US for places like Google, there are quantum computing startups like Xanadu in Canada, along with other technology startups in Canada’s big cities too).

In addition, outside of the RCMP, various ministries of the Canadian government could need the skillset too (Statistics Canada being the one that first comes to mind, though any teams that do economic analyses could benefit from someone with the background).

[4ad]

> NSA

> finance

You're not selling it.

[annyeonghada]

Yeah, I remember my Physics degree: "With a Physics degree you will have lots of employment opportunities... but not in Physics!"

[wbl]

GS pay isn't that competitive

[jleyank]

There are a fair number of phd’s employed in biotech/pharma. Who do you think makes the stuff? Bs/ms are their techs. The ads in the states publishes salary history every year for those who care. It’s not SV salary but it’s way more useful than selling ads and scarfing data - you can actually end up curing a cancer or other diseases…

And before you go about just curing symptoms, remember that many real cures would require gene modification and people aren’t all that interested in being a gmo. Ask RA sufferers about drugs like Humera re curing symptoms.

[QuadmasterXLII]

I mean, usually you just end up trading stonk at Renaissance Technologies or PanAgora. I'm not studying anything finance related and haven't even finished my phd and they've still been actively after me to sell my soul for mid six figures. The worst part was, I did the interviews to get an offer and everyone I talked to was tangibly brilliant- like could really be changing the world instead of this. I almost did it for the money + chance to work with a bunch of actually smart people, but the moral implications barely won out.

[ProjectArcturis]

What moral implications? Quants at RenTech are basically just card counters in the biggest casino in the world.

[QuadmasterXLII]

I came to the conclusion that most likely, taking the job was morally neutral- barely hurting nor helping anyone outside the firm (not specifically RT- don't want to out myself); but that on a larger scale our country is rotting because our most capable thinkers are doing this instead of anything morally positive (solving healthcare, solving the climate crisis, leading the country), and I didn't want to participate in that brain drain.

Looking at my own motivations, one of the big draws of the position was that everyone I talked to at the firm was competent and pleasant, while in domains solving real problems (again for example healthcare and climate) 70% of people I've interacted with are stupid, petty, or both. But stepping back, isn't that state of affairs existentially horrifying? If that status quo persists, will we even survive as a species?

[ProjectArcturis]

Fair. It's really a shame that society incentivizes its smartest to go into finance rather than a positive-sum endeavor. If it's any reassurance, the world has pretty much always been this way.

And I'm pretty surprised everyone you met was pleasant -- that was certainly not my experience at a hedge fund.

[karmakurtisaani]

Knowing what I know now, I would have jumped ship in your shoes in an instant. After 5 years of that work you could be free from working ever again and do whatever you feel like. I've heard that RT for example can pay you up to 1M per year for entry level, and looking at their profit margins I don't really doubt it.

[ourmandave]

Had to look it up.

The starting salary for a research scientist is $170 - $205K.

https://www.rentec.com/Careers.action?researchScientist=true

[karmakurtisaani]

RT has a yearly return averaging around 40%, and the employees only portfolio averages around 70% per year (at least this was the case a few years ago still). I would imagine the major part of the compensation comes from bonuses and the opportunity to invest in the employees only fund.

170k-200k is not that different from ordinary banks, I can't imagine it's all RT would pay.

Edit: had to look up the annual returns and they seem to be a bit different depending on where you look, so take those numbers with a grain of salt. In any case they're consistently the most profitable hedge fund out there.

[vasco]

At those places the real money is made by being allowed to participate in the employee-only investment funds.

[mcculley]

The current labor market is paying much better than before for scientists with just a B.S.

I do agree that there is little economic value in most Ph.D. programs.

[Avicebron]

From my experience working in biotech I would say certainly a B.S. in a scientific field (like biochemistry, etc.) There is often a hard cap in the career trajectory without a PhD. Often there are enough PhDs out there that moving into management in industry often requires this vs. Stagnating as a lab scientist without a huge upward spike in income/responsibilities.