[throwaway4aday]

Those benefits are ludicrous. How can any small company or startup survive if they have to contend with those kinds of requirements? If I were a business owner wherever you are I'd restrict my hiring as much as possible and try to find ways to not hire anyone, probably by contracting work out to other businesses or offshore completely.

[sweaty]

It's a good question. Here, if you have a permanent contract, the employer is required to pay into various government insurances, and this is mandatory for all employers. The salaries here are lower because of this, but it's deceiving because the insurances are based on your salary. Your employer also pays anywhere between 2-10% on top of your monthly salary into a pension fund on top of your state pension. So in short, if you make 100k EUR, after taxes that's actually your money. So in my case, after I've made my monthly mortgage payment, set some aside for groceries and some subscriptions, the money I have left can be spent on whatever I want without worry, I practically don't need to save unless I choose to.

You're right in that employers restrict hiring as much as possible, what tends to happen here is you get a 1 year contract with the option to be taken on permanently, and these contracts don't have all of the insurances. Taking a permanent contract here is seen as a serious commitment to the company, so most people who just want more money in their bank account at the end of the month choose not to take permanent contracts and take the risk themselves.

If I saved for these things myself in the US, I would've been netting less than I do here in Europe, despite my US salary being 100k higher. A lot of people live way beyond their means with all these things considered.

[balfirevic]

> The salaries here are lower because of this, but it's deceiving because the insurances are based on your salary.

Salaries in Europe are much lower even when all the salary and benefit related expenses (so called "gross 2" salary) are taken into account.

[WalterBright]

The value of benefits packages in the US is often around 40% of the salary. For example, health insurance, social security, 401k matching contributions, stock options, etc.

[scld]

Many don't contend with those requirements and it's one of myriad reasons that we're mostly talking about U.S. companies on this site.

[fleddr]

I recognize those numbers and suspect he's talking about the Netherlands. If so, he/she is being incredibly inaccurate in describing benefits.

If you're on a permanent contract, there's a minimum legal notice that depends on years served and your age. So it's not "6 months", it's a variable amount of months. It may be as little as 0.5-2 months if you've worked there for < 5 years. If you're not on a permanent contract, the notice is: BYE.

As for "75% for 2 years", that's not the employer paying you, it's the state. Unemployment benefits. Where both "75%" and "2 years" are lacking some crucial details. It's max 75% of a fixed cap. So if you're a high earner, you might only get 25-50% of your previous salary. Further, you'll be intensely pressurized to find that new job, where you need to supply weekly evidence of job interviews. You can't just take a holiday for 2 years. By the way, you paid for the above yourself, directly from your payslip.

As for "50% indefinitely", this is state wellfare. Which is absolute hell. You don't easily qualify for it and you're even more pressurized to find a job, any job. You'll be closely monitored and you can't own anything of any worth. So if you were a highroller owning assets before, get ready to be stripped naked. Next, you'll have the social stigma of being a leech. Have this on your resume, and its goodbye career.

I'm honestly pissed about the inaccuracy of the poster.

[refurb]

Which is why in many European countries employers are so hesitant to hire - you’re signing up for years of paying someone.

So imagine your the next unicorn? Would you hire like crazy in Europe?

[systemvoltage]

I tried starting a manufacturing site in Switzerland. We wanted to get the Swiss Made badge (70% parts sourced in Switzerland and all major assembly steps done by Swiss employees). An hourly employee had basic rate of CHF 45 an hour and they had to be paid some ridiculous benefits totaling up to like CHF 120 an hour. Apart from the cost, the biggest issue is that you can’t fire them essentially if you hire them on “permanent basis”. It’s impossible to do anything there for a scrappy small business.

Modern Switzerland is much of a socialist state. It’s lost all the things that made it a great place for business. Zurich is still a small tech hub for startups but mostly services and finance. Labor is usually hired in US or elsewhere.

About the only place in EU that's pro-small business is Italy. It still has some 50% of the GDP from companies less than 50 employees.

[throwaway4aday]

Pretty much what I expected. Also, I'm surprised that the Swiss Franc is worth exactly the same as the US Dollar. Is it pegged to it? 45USD per hour for an hourly manufacturing job is shocking as well, that's about $90k per year. I'm sure it makes it a nice place to live but God help them if they ever need to get something done in a hurry. I imagine they have to tightly control immigration as well.

[vladvasiliu]

Those benefits are not paid by the company, but by the state. That's one of the reasons why cash-in-hand salaries are lower in most "socialist" European countries: the State takes a big fat cut out of it (47% in France), so it can pay for these benefits.

[dboreham]

Taxes in the USA are often just as high (remember to add in state and local taxes for an apples to apples comparison with European countries). And for that you get no "socialism" -- no healthcare until you're old, for example.

[vladvasiliu]

Income taxes (Federal + CA) seem to be roughly in the same ballpark as France based on [0]. A French income tax simulator is available at [1]. This is the "simplified" version. What matters is box 1AJ for salaried income.

For 100000 USD it's actually a bit higher than for 100000 EUR.

However, as another commenter said, income tax is not the full story - far from it. There are other taxes that you have to pay. Also, while social security comes out of your paycheck, it's considered taxable income in France for the purposes of the income tax. Also, social security is usually insufficient, so you usually have to pay for a separate insurance. Which, you guessed it, isn't deductible from taxes.

As far as a company's concerned, if the employee costs 100 EUR "fully loaded", they only get around 55-60 EUR in hand. Also, when comparing with the US, don't forget that VAT is at 20-25% depending on the country. And, at least in France, VAT is levied on some taxes (yup), like for example electricity and gas.

[0] https://www.forbes.com/advisor/income-tax-calculator/califor...

[1] https://simulateur-ir-ifi.impots.gouv.fr/calcul_impot/2022/s...

[mensetmanusman]

People forget to count the corporate taxes on the employers in Europe (to support the welfare state) which lowers the salaries of workers making the calculation look like taxes are similar.

[rendang]

Overall tax burden is quite different: https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-revenue.htm

US is around 25% whereas France is 45%

[themitigating]

Why won't someone think of the business!

[throwaway4aday]

No jobs without businesses, so really we are keeping the workers in mind.

[themitigating]

No businesses without workers or consumers as well so it's a wash and neither should receive preferential treatment

[thunky]

> How can any small company or startup survive if they have to contend with those kinds of requirements?

That's why Twitter didn't start there.

[PeterStuer]

If Twitter had started there the US would have just scooped it up with their free monopoly money.

[friedman23]

The free monopoly money that is somehow worth more than the european monopoly money.

[PeterStuer]

Only the designated world reserve currency is truly free monopoly money.

[mola]

Because weapons.

[thunky]

That's beside the point if Europe's regulatory structure (among other reasons) made starting a business there less attractive anyway.