[iso1631]

Hence "I accept there's probably some discussion about how recent immigrants count"

The big question is when do people become native. You can't go back 200 years for obvious reasons, if you're born in America you're and American, just because your grandfather was born in Belfast it doesn't make you Irish. If you moved to Belfast when you were 10 and have lived there for 30 years though, then you clearly are.

Northern Cyprus is what it is now. Yes there were issues 50 years ago when it was partitioned, but life moves on. On the other hand if the US had invaded Basra, displaced the population, put in 2 million of its own citizens, and then claimed independence 2 months later based on overwhelming support, that wouldn't be reasonable. 100 years later, then sure.

Sometimes people lose out. It's sad, and shouldn't have happened, but after some time (that might be 10 years, it might be 100) you have just as much right to your voice as everyone else living there.

[nirimda]

The argument amounts to might makes right. You're stronger than your neighbor? Just forcibly resettle some of your citizens there and give them an interest in your success.

The principle of self determination worked very nicely when there were pre-existing contested territories as a way to extinguish claims. But it must not be allowed to create competing claims or else it will do vastly more harm than it has so far eliminated. This is why it's generally not recognised. This is why Crimea and Catalonia's claims of UDI were disregarded. This is why Scotland is seeking independence through internal negotiation.

What harm are you trying to heal with self-determination? Or is it just some ideological commitment to the idea no matter how much suffering comes from it?

[iso1631]

> The argument amounts to might makes right. You're stronger than your neighbor? Just forcibly resettle some of your citizens there and give them an interest in your success.

OK, so America wants to take over say Panama. Why would Panama allow millions of Americans to live there?

> This is why Scotland is seeking independence through internal negotiation.

Scotland isn't seeking independence. A large number of people in Scotland are. They have that right, so do people in Catalonia, California and Cornwall. In the case of California and Cornwall I'm fairly certain the number wanting independence is a tiny minority, but if they want independence they have full rights, just like the people of Virginia and co had a right to independence from the Britain back in the 18th century.

The alternative view is that the people of Virginia and co did not have that right, and that may be something you believe, but it's not something I believe