[bartlettD]

>The big question is—will this $599 desktop be enough to push more developers towards cross-compiling for native ARM64 software on Windows?

No, more consumer hardware like the Surface series will push devs. Who will eventually want to get out of the x86 emulation layer and run their programs native.

Comparing this to an M1 Mini is a bit odd since they're not competing with each other at all, and Microsoft is limited by what Qualcomm et al can put out.

[gjsman-1000]

Nope, it won't, as you say. How many people have Surface Pro X, or another Windows on ARM machine?

Less than 1% do. Let's say, though this is a high estimate, 0.5% of Windows users are ARM. Now let's say my app has 1 million installs at $1 each (pretty successful). That means my total value for optimizing for those ARM users is... $5,000. And they can already run my app with translation, so it's actually worth less than that. So... when you factor in costs of Project Volterra + Developer Time + Fixing Code Time + Lost Opportunities on More Productive Things... there's basically no way, even with 1 million users at $1 each, to justify the effort.

This device is great for developers who already care and love their users. Anyone who doesn't care won't care.

Edit: Also, at those numbers, it would be better if I didn't offer an ARM-native version. If even a tiny percentage of my userbase downloads the ARM-native version by accident on their x86 machine, the support costs will eat away at that too.

Edit @bartlettD: We're not - sorry if it reads that way. I'm just providing an additional argument, but I've reworded slightly to make that a bit clearer.

[jve]

It takes 1 CEO of Windows ARM device for dogfooding own software to ARM :)

Anyways, what I noticed is that CxOs started to carry Apple MacBooks around and sysadmins just had to deal with it.

[bartlettD]

I don't think we're disagreeing. Devs have no incentive to develop for ARM if there is no market share like you said, so they're not going to buy a $599 kit and its existence won't sway them either.

I think there will come a time when the number of ARM Windows machines increases though.

This kit is useful for the devs who care about the performance of their programs on ARM kit but they'll only optimise for it if the market is there.

[giaour]

> Less than 1% do. Let's say, though this is a high estimate, 0.5% of Windows users are ARM. Now let's say my app has 1 million installs at $1 each (pretty successful). That means my total value for optimizing for those ARM users is... $5,000. And they can already run my app with translation, so it's actually worth less than that.

Not disputing your numbers, but for devs writing web services or cloud workloads, compiling for arm can mean spending a lot less on VMs. If I were writing software that had to run on Windows Server on ARM, I would probably want one of these devices for local development.

[dboreham]

> How many people have Surface Pro X

<raises hand>

[bpye]

I work for MSFT and have been using an SPX as my primary device for a little over a year. I haven’t had an issue with user space applications, but I do have an audio interface that doesn’t work because the vendor (MOTU) doesn’t ship ARM64 drivers :(

[csdvrx]

It's sad. I'm using a USB-C to 4.5mm TRRS audio dongle, and if you can't get audio drivers, I fear my "exotic" setup is even less likely to be supported.

I've been wanting to try Windows 11 on ARM64 with a Microsoft or a Lenovo device, but nothing seems to have the basics I'm looking for like OLED for a laptop, or ECC (for both a laptop or a server)

If there were ARM64 options with ECC RAM, I'd buy that today and start deploying tomorrow.

[bpye]

The only ARM64 option with ECC that I know of is Ampere's rather expensive development workstation [0].

[0] - https://solutions.amperecomputing.com/systems/altra/kraken-c...

[mjard]

Does windows not provide a generic "class compliant" audio driver? I'm amazed it works so well everywhere else if Microsoft doesn't support it.

[bpye]

I went down this path. Yes, Windows includes an inbox USB audio class driver, but it lacks support for implicit feedback. The MOTU interface does not have a feedback endpoint, and relies on implicit feedback, so the inbox driver doesn't work. I think the inbox driver does work for Focusrite's interfaces - I guess they include the feedback endpoint, and both Linux and macOS support implicit feedback so MOTU's devices work there. Apple actually recommend implicit feedback only [0].

[0] - https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/technotes/tn2274...

[mjard]

Thanks for the information! My Motu (M2) does live on a linux machine and it's been relatively painless, worked on MacOs as well, but required a driver download on Windows. I never dug into why. Audio interfaces tend to be finicky things on their own, I also have an Arturia Audio Fuse Studio that needs to be "rebooted" from time to time, no matter what OS its connected to.

[mycall]

MOTU 828mk3 supports firewire, if you want to try that approach.

[robotnikman]

I don't have much faith in Qualcomm putting out a decent ARM processor any time soon. They have coasted for a while on pricey contracts and patents and their recent processors for the last few years are nowhere close to the M1 in performance, let alone the M2.

[ac29]

They bought Nuvia last year, an ARM chip startup with a bunch of ex-Apple ARM folks. We'll see how it turns out, but the acquisition suggests they are serious about improving performance.

[elorant]

Speaking for myself, it’s not an ARM desktop PC what I need, but an ARM server. Make those highly available and then I’ll start developing/porting my code on ARM.

[JimmyAustin]

AWS has them: https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/graviton/, and you can run Lambdas with ARM.

Disclaimer: I work for Amazon (not in AWS).

[empraptor]

Microsoft had preview for ARM64 Azure VMs earlier this year. Not sure if they've gone beyond that.

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/now-in-preview-azure-...

[cylinder714]

Foxconn, Gigabyte and Supermicro make Ampere Altra-based servers: https://amperecomputing.com/reference-platforms/ampere-altra...

[csdvrx]

It's hard to get from usual companies like Lenovo, Dell, HP etc.

I just want ARM64 with ECC and the ability to put quite few NVMe inside (U2 or M2, doesn't matter that much)

[elorant]

I've seen those, but they cost a fortune. Even the smallest 32core CPU with 128GB RAM and a couple of nvme ssds costs more than 10k.

[nicoburns]

Pretty much all the cloud providers have ARM options these days, even the smaller ones.

[cooldown_00001]

> Comparing this to an M1 Mini is a bit odd since they're not competing with each other at all, and Microsoft is limited by what Qualcomm et al can put out.

Microsoft is a multi billion dollar company, they are not limited, they made a bad business decision to depend on a 3rd party to build chips for them

Their products are meant to be competitive against the competition, they should be compared for what they are, computers

[sangnoir]

Venturing into a product category just because your competitor is doing the same is not great motivation, and is a distraction at best. Microsoft has no interest in selling computers[1] in large volumes: it's long-term OEM partners may not appreciate Microsoft cranking out computers in anger. The Surface line seems to be a Halo product for Windows, or examplar to OEMs (and I'm guessing Microsoft mostly works as an integrator of existing parts made by other manufacturers).

1. Renting them out via Azure definitely interests them.

[scarface74]

Why exactly isn’t the Mac Mini competing with this? No one cares that Microsoft is “limited to what Qualcomm can ship” anymore than anyone cared that Apple was limited to what IBM/Motorola could ship back in the PPC era.

The fact remains that the fastest way to run Windows ARM is on an Mx Mac in a VM.

[Kukumber]

why would you use windows nowadays?

why would you use windows with ARM?

m1 mini let's you build apps for the biggest OS on the market (iOS)

macOS is the industry standard when it comes to audio/photo/video production

office? everyone uses a web interface, even slack has a web interface

and it makes even more sense to compare both, specially considering we are headed towards a giant recession due to rising cost of energy and the anti-carbon policies that will come will affect the companies that are wasting energy with inefficient machines

it's mindbloging that people put this much energy defending qualcomm contract, it literally is putting the west at a disadvantage against China

it makes perfect sense to compare it with the apple chip, you are blind if you think otherwise, to stay polite

[nvrspyx]

> why would you use windows nowadays?

- Gaming

- Cheaper hardware options than Macs

- Commercial software support (e.g., Adobe, Autodesk, Affinity, Office, etc.)

- Better hardware support (e.g., Nvidia graphics cards)

- Easier Linux VM setup with WSL and x86(_64) support than Mac (i.e., requires ARM iso or the hassle of setting up Rosetta)

- Piecemeal hardware upgradability

- Less hassle than Linux, depending on hardware configuration and needs

- Smoother experience for some things like (HiDPI) multi-monitor setups and video playback than Linux with the current state of Wayland and the recent drop of third-party codecs by multiple distros

Some of these apply to Mac and some of these apply to Linux, but only Windows has all of these characteristics. Windows is far from perfect, but it is the best tool for some jobs. People also simply have different preferences and trade-off priorities, whether it be in regards to usability, affordability, privacy, or anything else.

[smackeyacky]

This is a good list, although for me I find it less and less compelling as more of my development tools become either fully cross-platform or web based completely and distributions like Pop! make hardware support easier.

- Gaming - no question windows is still better.

- Less hassle? - I find that questionable these days. Windows 11 has broken this somewhat.

I like WSL2 but for the last couple of years I've found it easier to reboot into Linux for dev work and just switch back to Windows for gaming.

[cooldown_00001]

> - Gaming

Mobile/Console gaming got a bigger market share

> - Cheaper hardware options than Macs

That's a valid point, although Chromebooks are better in that regard

> - Commercial software support (e.g., Adobe, Autodesk, Affinity, Office, etc.)

They support macOS too, and since they are moving to web interfaces the OS not longer matter (support Chromium / Safari / Firefox)

> - Better hardware support (e.g., Nvidia graphics cards)

Both NVIDIA / AMD offered their PRO products for a very long time on macOS

macOS also has better audio hardware support out of the box, and that includes manipulating RAW photos too ;)

> - Easier Linux VM setup with WSL and x86(_64) support than Mac (i.e., requires ARM iso or the hassle of setting up Rosetta)

That's not true, macOS doesn't need a linux VM when most of the core unix tools are available out of the box

And in that case, WSL doesn't work with the ARM windows ;)

> - Piecemeal hardware upgradability

Professionals don't care about this, they replace their machines every few years (ebay is flooded with cheap thinkpad laptops)

> - Less hassle than Linux, depending on hardware configuration and needs

Nobody waste their time constantly "configuring" their machines, it's setup once then they use it, it's valid for Windows/macOS/linux and mobile OSs, most of the settings are blocked by the sys admin anyways

> - Smoother experience for some things like (HiDPI) multi-monitor setups and video playback than Linux with the current state of Wayland and the recent drop of third-party codecs by multiple distros

Linux? linux is not meant to be a "univernal ready2go plug'n'play" OS, it's meant to scale from embedded to datacenters, you have to configure it to work the way you want, it's by design and the reason why people use it to begin with

[pjmlp]

People use it because it is a free beer UNIX clone, they wouldn't otherwise if there was a price tag on it.

We would have kept using Solaris, Aix, HP-UX, Tru64,...

[thebitstick]

All valid and true points on x86_64.

Windows on ARM ruins everything Windows offers.

- No gaming due to poor emulation

- Usually pricy Surface devices

- macOS on ARM has waaaaay better commercial support

- Do any WoA devices even have USB4?

- WSL still exists, and is better than anything on the Mac

- No hardware upgradability

- More hassle than Linux, since everything is compiled natively for aarch64

[neogodless]

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share

Android 42%

Windows 30%

iOS 18%

> everyone uses a web interface

Can you provide some global statistics for this claim? I don't believe it's accurate, but I don't have a good way to measure or disprove it.

[scarface74]

And where are the most affluent users? Do you think Google would be paying Apple 18B+ a year to be the default search engine if the 18% of mobile users weren’t valuable?

[Kukumber]

It's clear in that graph

Look around you, look what tech companies uses to make their products (hint: electron)

Microsoft moving their Office suite to the web should give you an indication where they want to take Windows, due to new usages

Global market share is a fake metric, what grandma's PC from 2006 has to do with todays usages?

It's true for everything, gaming, music, video, even art [1]

"Photoshop's journey to the web"

[1] - https://web.dev/ps-on-the-web/

[hota_mazi]

OP debunks your claims with solid statistics and the best way you can respond is "Look around you"?

You fandom for all things Apple make you a bit blind to reality, I suggest you look at things with more nuance and actually document yourself with actual numbers. You might be surprised by what you find.

[cooldown_00001]

debunk what? number of people visiting that weird website that includes `gs.statcounter` javascript tracker?

can we stop with macOS vs windows, it's clearly not the point

that was in response to:

> Comparing this to an M1 Mini is a bit odd since they're not competing with each other at all

to that it started with the evolution of the usages and why the OS/Machine no longer matter since the products target them all

so again, comparing both makes perfect sense

the people who add value, are using certain kind of devices

why did microsoft invest into Teams web interface first, and more than their native counterpart?

why was zoom the most popular product (it's a webapp), for visio conference, despite skype existing for years during the pandemic?

why is adobe investing into porting photoshop to the web?

why is microsoft investing into cloud gaming?

you have to filter out the noise if you want to have a proper analysis, and to properly project

when one say look around, it's not looking at your neighborhood, it's about looking at other stats/metrics

[mynameisvlad]

> what grandma's PC from 2006 has to do with todays usages?

I mean, grandma clearly uses her PC for it to be included in a global market share, so why do you think her use should be discounted?

Even if her usage is considered "niche" (debatable as that is), it doesn't mean it shouldn't be included.

[Kukumber]

windows has 0 market value, most of the usage comes from zombie machines

it even dropped in revenue in their latest report

https://www.wsj.com/articles/microsoft-msft-q1-earnings-repo...

[bilekas]

> windows has 0 market value, most of the usage comes from zombie machines

Have you ever worked in an enterprise environment ?

[z3phyr]

> Why would you use windows nowadays.

1) PC Gaming is a big market mover.

2) (Underrated) As a systems developer, Visual Studio is one of the best development environments I have ever used. VS for windows is the real one, VS for mac is a totally different software.

[scarface74]

1. PC gaming is tiny in the grand scheme of things.

https://kevurugames.com/blog/mobile-gaming-vs-pc-gaming-over...

[pjmlp]

In revenue kind of, but not on the AAA titles it shares with XBox.

[jhoechtl]

> m1 mini let's you build apps for the biggest OS on the market (iOS)

Mobile OS it's Android,Desktop is Windows.

> office? everyone uses a web interface, even slack has a web interface

Huh? Microsoft Word on Windows native?

> companies that are wasting energy with inefficient machines

I bet your usage of cloud office burns more energy than an native app.

[scarface74]

> Mobile OS it's Android,Desktop is Windows

Money is not in Android development compared to iOS.

And M1 Macs are faster for Android development than Windows

https://habr.com/ru/company/surfstudio/blog/646677/

[rekoil]

> Huh? Microsoft Word on Windows native?

I think the commenter is trying to say that it's not something you need a Windows device for anymore.

I agree with that sentiment, but disagree about web-based Word, web-based Word is terrible, we often joke in my team that we need to start over if someone accidentally opens a SharePoint document in web-based Word.

[rejectfinite]

>why would you use windows nowadays?

One thing people have not mentioned is Enterprise.

Just because its all webapps does not mean everyone can move to a Chromebook.

The ecosystem of HP/DELL/Lenovo Thinkpad hardware + Windows 10/11 OS + management over Azure AD or on-prem AD that hooks into Office 365 and most other apps. Plus all ERP and HR software that run on Windows Servers.

Yes the USERS are mostly on the Office 365 suite and webapps for things. But their PCs have to be managed and apps have to be served.

[scarface74]

I know of a very large company - the second largest employer in the US has no problem managing Macs at scale.

[rejectfinite]

Jamf is a thing, yes I know :)

[TheLoafOfBread]

I can user 2 or more monitors without actually losing my sanity.

[rekoil]

macOS is very clearly optimised towards laptops in this regard, which makes sense since they sell waaaay more of those than they do stationary.

It's been a while since I used Windows on a laptop, about 2 years (so Windows 10 20H2 was likely the last I used on a laptop). Back then un-docking and re-docking my laptop was a pain because it would smoosh all app windows to the primary monitor, and I'd have to move everything around on my 3 monitors when re-docking. Every. Single. Time.

Those had different DPIs as well, with all the issues that brought.

I can't actually recall a time when macOS was that bad at managing my app windows when changing monitor configurations, but I'll give you that Windows is better at window management if all displays stay connected and have the same DPI.

Has Windows gotten better at these things?

[TheLoafOfBread]

If you have icons on 2 monitors and then you disconnect 1, yes icons are everywhere. When you will reconnect the second one, it will restore as it was. I do not know how it is working (or not) on laptops and monitors combinations as I have desktop PC with 2 monitors.

[rekoil]

I'm not so worried about icons, I don't really use the desktop, in fact I actually disable desktop icons on my macOS laptop.

I'm more interested in what happens to app windows when you remove and reconnect displays.

[flohofwoe]

> why would you use windows nowadays?

PC games, plain and simple.

[Melatonic]

macOS is the standard for prosumer audio/photo/video production - not for the actual pro market. VFX mainly uses Linux or Windows desktops and the top compositing applications arent even made for macOS.

Not to mention all of the stuff that requires CUDA to run and the fact that Apple made their bed with AMD a long time ago and you can no longer use Nvidia GPUs.