[Test0129]

This is happening more and more frequently in my locale. Several of my friends and many of my neighbors have had their catalytic converters stolen.

It's good to see something is done. Let's hope this steamrolls into a nationwide manhunt for these criminals. They should also consider targeting and auditing shops that buy used car parts. Making it extremely difficult to fence these things will be practical and useful because they aren't sold and reused as is - the rare earth metals are extracted. Something your average criminal won't be capable of doing in their garage.

[humanistbot]

> They should also consider targeting and auditing shops that buy used car parts. Making it extremely difficult to fence these things will be practical and useful because they aren't sold and reused as is

California just passed a law to this end, which is pretty straightforward and effectively turns the grey market into a black market. A black market will still exist, but it will be a lot harder for legitimate junkyards, auto repair shops, and recycling facilities to look the other way.

It basically mandates KYC (Know Your Customer) procedures for companies that buy or sell catalytic converters, and it makes buying or selling a catalytic converter without documentation that it was obtained legally a crime. It won't completely eliminate the problem, and it'll be harder unless Arizona, Nevada, and Mexico also take similar steps. But it should also enable more targeting and auditing. One part of this case was filed in California, so I bet they had some kind of sting operation that was made a lot easier when they can lean on a low-level junkyard dealer to testify against the people higher up in the black market.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-09-25/newsom-s...

[catiopatio]

> It basically mandates KYC (Know Your Customer) procedures for companies that buy or sell catalytic converters, and it makes buying or selling a catalytic converter without documentation that it was obtained legally a crime.

This is worse than the original problem. When did we become so comfortable with the government mandating presentation of papers and tracking of private transactions?

Effective, privacy-preserving law enforcement is difficult.

That doesn’t mean we should cut corners through ever-increasing state oversight targeted at the latest symptoms of criminality.

The choice isn’t between laws like this and having your catalytic converter stolen. The choice is between law enforcement actually doing their job, or invasive and ineffectual laws like this.

The justice department, in the very article we’re discussing, investigated and took down this ring without California’s new “KYC” regulations.

[skeeter2020]

Ever been to a pawn shop? Everything in a legit operation runs through this process.

>> The choice is between law enforcement actually doing their job, or invasive and ineffectual laws like this.

I'm on guard for overreah all the time, but I'm OK with showing ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, fly on a plane, sell items that should rarely be done in bulk outside of rare conditions, like a bunch of catalytic converters.

[WalterBright]

In Washington State, there's a new law where I not only have to show ID to buy booze, I have to have my ID scanned.

So now, the government keeps track of what and how much booze I buy. Ugh.

This is beyond stupid, as people stopped thinking I might be under 21 back when the buffalo roamed.

[jdeibele]

https://keyw.com/fred-meyer-oregon-is-scanning-your-drivers-... That's an article from September talking about how Kroger (Fred Meyer, QFC) stores in Oreogn are scanning drivers licenses for alcohol purchases and asks if Washington is next.

Locally, a large (100+) chain (Plaid Pantry) of convenience stores also is scanning licenses. Saw somebody with an Olde English 40 and a passport.

It's not the law in Oregon (or Washington) but the article says it is in Tennessee. Also says you can ask them to type in the digits of your birthdate.

[mbg721]

I asked a checkout worker about this once (in Ohio), and they claimed they were made to do it so that the state could pressure people with expired drivers' licenses to renew them. (This was right about when they were ending COVID-related extensions on the expiration dates.) I don't agree with using liquor age laws for that either, but I think if the state wanted invasive personal data, they'd just ask Kroger for it.

[vinay427]

Is this a law that mandates scanning of IDs for authenticity purposes or storing that data?

The few other states I could easily find online that had a similar law typically require that retailers either don’t store the data or that they delete it within X days.

[csomar]

The shop might store the data or misuse it. This is already a solved problem. A privately signed identity that can be verified without transferring any of the data using a device the government provides.

But I already said government too much. This is all non-senses. Transactions should not be monitored.

[re]

It's not state law, whoever told you that is misinformed. It's just the policy of the store you go to (presumably QFC/Fred Meyer).

[heleninboodler]

I assume this hasn't taken effect yet? I bought booze today in WA without showing ID.

[WalterBright]

They always make me give them ID to scan.

[csomar]

Pretty soon all transactions will involve KYC, not just monetary ones.

[Fatnino]

Regarding ID for flying...

I took a flight today. I had to show my ID once at the start of the security line where they did NOT check my boarding pass.

Then at the gate they only wanted to see my boarding pass and not my ID.

So basically nobody actually cares about ID when flying. It would have been trivial to buy the ticket in a false name or "borrow" someone else's name without asking.

To be clear, this failing is all on the gate procedure. If security wanted to check boarding pass or if they have to hooked up on the computer there, a simple bypass would be to buy a cheap ticket in your real name and the ticket you intend to fly in some other name.

[varenc]

They scan your ID and look up your flight in databases based on your name. It’s been happening for a few years now: https://thepointsguy.com/news/tsa-new-technology/

[adamj9431]

This new procedure and equipment is partially rolled out at TSA checkpoints across the US, has been for a couple of years now. The agent's computer shows the flight information. No reason to have an extra step to scan a boarding pass since the computer pulls it all up anyways.

To get through TSA as a member of the general public, you have to have a ticket (or a non-traveler gate pass) in your real name (matching your ID, soon to be real ID requirement) for a flight leaving in the next N hours. International flights check your passport at the boarding gate. For domestic, sure, you could swap to another boarding pass purchased under a different name, but what's the threat model there? You've already been screened.

[Fatnino]

Now you aren't being tracked.

Say you've done a crime that will be discovered in a few days. You buy a ticket to Detroit and next week the fbi will be wasting its time looking for you in Michigan and trying to convince Canada to search for you in Ontario.

In reality you hopped on a flight to El Paso under a fake name and you are deep into Mexico by now.

[serf]

>I'm on guard for overreah all the time, but I'm OK with showing ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, fly on a plane, sell items that should rarely be done in bulk outside of rare conditions, like a bunch of catalytic converters.

you should probably re-evaluate your ideas about personal ID with regards to travel if you're interested in over-reach. These laws are routinely used as an anti-immigration method by ICE and equivalents, and there is very little proof that they do much to make the world any safer.

[alar44]

Anyone who thinks countries and states don't have the right to control their borders has lost touch with reality.

[danielheath]

Sure they do, but in an ostensibly-free state is "you must unlock your devices and give immigration full access to the data within" really a reasonable position? If you wanted to bring sketchy data into the country, surely it'd be easier to do it via a VPN, right?

[rosywoozlechan]

> When did we become so comfortable with the government mandating presentation of papers and tracking of private transactions?

Have you ever run a business? You have to track a lot already. For the IRS, for your business license, for auditing, for compliance depending on what goods and services you sell. You know like firearms, tobacco, alcohol, pharmaceuticals are big ones, but also animals, chemicals, certain kinds of technology. If you require a federal permit, if you sell goods across state, international, if you ship things. Like, I feel like this cat came out of the bag before the 18th century, based on my understanding of the regulation of businesses in the United States.

[catiopatio]

It’s gotten considerably worse over the past 20 years; we’re asked to present ID and tracked in government databases when purchasing allergy medicine.

[tptacek]

That's because the allergy medicine might as well just be methamphetamine. That's really more or less what it is, modulo a reduction step. Nobody cares about your allergies, and if you go to buy Sudafed, they're just going to sell it to you. The only thing that will trip you up is if you go from store to store collecting lots of it.

[autoexec]

> Nobody cares about your allergies, and if you go to buy Sudafed, they're just going to sell it to you. The only thing that will trip you up is if you go from store to store collecting lots of it.

That's not true. First they don't just sell it to you, they take your ID, record your information, send that to the state, and then sell it you. Going to one store after another after another collecting lots of pills isn't the only thing that will trip people up either. I've had times when I was told I couldn't purchase allergy medication because I'd purchased some already. I had recently, for the family, but I was traveling and didn't have the medication with me.

I wasn't going around to a bunch of stores buying mass quantities of allergy medications, I'd made a purchase once and several days/weeks after tried to make a second purchase. I can't imagine I'm the only person alive who has failed to bring a medication with them while traveling, or suddenly had need for it when they didn't have some immediately on their person, or made a purchase and soon after lost it, only to discover that a pointless restriction brought about by a failed war on drugs prevented a simple purchase fully intended for treatment of a medical condition.

Maybe a more sane threshold for treating people like criminals would help the situation, but honestly the entire program seems like a waste of time of money at this point.

[WalterBright]

And yet this has had no effect on the meth epidemic.

[rosywoozlechan]

Yes, if you mean pseudoephedrine, that's to stop the production of meth.

[colechristensen]

Just as a note, this didn't work at all. They came up with a better chemistry and now there's more meth than there was before. Breaking Bad dramatized this aspect of it (though their chemistry wasn't correct on purpose).

[catiopatio]

> that's to stop the production of meth.

It didn’t.

Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of people buying allergy medicine have the sniffles, not a meth lab.

There’s always a “safety” justification for further privacy intrusions by the police.

If they can’t do their job without intrusive, non-targeted government monitoring of the general public, the police need to get better at their jobs.

[scarface74]

How is that working out?

[Scoundreller]

I thought it was to prevent competing with the cartels?

[ikiris]

Do you understand why, or just want to yell at strawmen?

Like... meth exists.

[XorNot]

To be fair, criminalizing meth (and pretty much all recreational drugs) has always been trying to solve the wrong problem.

[hack_edu]

> When did we become so comfortable with the government mandating presentation of papers and tracking of private transactions?

After Timothy McVeigh blew up a building with a truck full of agricultural supplies.

[catiopatio]

How well did that prevent 9/11?

The decrease in domestic terrorism is due to societal changes and better old-fashioned policing of home-grown extremist groups. We didn’t somehow make it impossible (or even difficult) to improvise large explosives.

[mattzito]

Well, those folks had to spend a few years planning, take flying lessons, dry run everything a few times, and then pull off the most complicated and coordinated terrorist attack in US history.

The actual bomb planning for the Oklahoma City bombing was less than a year and involved two people. So, seems like the bar was raised quite a bit.

[beenBoutIT]

You're giving the 9/11 terrorists far too much credit. They were supported/financed by the Saudis[0] and America dropping the ball was the only reason they succeeded.

It's not so much a big victory for the terrorists as a big black eye for America and our intelligence agencies.

One of the 9/11 pilots was reported to Federal agencies multiple times[1] and the hijacking still took place.

[0]https://theintercept.com/2021/09/11/september-11-saudi-arabi...

[1]https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=91659&page=1

[Teever]

Do you think that the bar was raised a bit or that the 9/11 terrorists set their sights a little higher?

[olliej]

How well did laws to stop isolated crazy people killing lots of people stop … um … a group of countries investing large amounts of money and years of time into planning and training for the largest single attack on a civilian target in history?

I mean sure, you could also ask how laws against shoplifting fail to stop bank robberies, and it would be just as coherent.

[drewmol]

largest single attack on a civilian target in history?

Japan would like to have a word with you.

[zeven7]

It prevented 7/15 pretty damn well

[khazhoux]

7/15: Never Remember

[tadfisher]

Survivorship bias. You don't know how many plots were prevented by making it difficult to obtain explosive precursors.

[Symbiote]

Let's up the ante and see where you stand.

In Britain, criminals were stealing the thick, copper cables used for power and signaling of the railway. They wrapped a chain around cables near a road crossing, attached it to a truck, and dragged a significant length of cable away, to sell as scrap.

That naturally means the railway can't be used for many hours, occasionally over a day, and costs a tremendous about to repair. (It is one of the most safety-critical large systems around.) There's huge disruption, as 600 people per train every 20 minutes simply don't fit on any other means of transport.

Compared to catalytic converters, the disruption to society is far greater, the replacement cost much higher, and the scrap value relatively lower.

About 10 years ago, a law was introduced forbidding scrap metal dealers from paying cash, and requiring them to check ID. That led to a 30% drop in theft.

Is that a reasonable law?

[dsfyu404ed]

>About 10 years ago, a law was introduced forbidding scrap metal dealers from paying cash, and requiring them to check ID. That led to a 30% drop in theft.

My ass it did. I've worked in the metal recycling industry.

Getting payment in some form other than cash doesn't deter people who were already willing to commit a crime. They have a buddy scrap it and the buddy takes a cut for taking on the risk.

Yards don't want the .gov snooping around because that never leads to anything good. At the very best it's a delay and distraction. So if you come in with something the .gov is going hard on this month (cats, railway cable, whatever) they will tell you to fuck off to some other yard. And when it's a PITA to fence shit shit doesn't get stolen. That's where you're getting your 30% reduction, not the law. The government is just such a PITA to deal with that scrap yards would rather leave money on the table than have to deal with officer Donut coming by every now and then to check their books.

[jameshart]

I’m not sure I understand why you think this reduction can’t be attributed to the law?

I think you might have a point that this law may have also deterred 30% of legitimate copper scrap transactions, if basically it made scrap dealers decide not to bother with copper at all…

[bluGill]

They deal with copper, just not copper that obviously is rail. Bring in some old plumbing parts no problem. The only people scrapping railroad parts are being paid by the railroad.

[WalterBright]

Hmm. I wonder if steel cables would work well enough?

[bluGill]

If you make them a lot bigger, copper is an excellent conductor. Silver is better yet, but not by enough to be worth the cost (contrary to popular belief, gold isn't very good, though it is better than iron) aluminum is often used as it is cheaper by enough, but it turns out of have weird properties and so extra care is needed to use it.

[socialismisok]

Yeah, it's WAY worse to have to check the provenance of an article for sale than to have your catalytic converter stolen.

[catiopatio]

Yes, it is.

The police can — clearly, as per this article — do their job without yet another intrusive privacy overreach being put permanently on the books.

[nobody9999]

>The police can — clearly, as per this article — do their job without yet another intrusive privacy overreach being put permanently on the books.

I'm a big proponent making police do actual police work to catch offenders.

In fact, police use of geo-fencing warrants, genealogical database mining, IMSI catchers and other invasions of privacy are all huge overreaches that should be slapped down hard.

That said, what reasonable mechanism do you suggest for police to use in identifying and deterring the catalytic converter (CC) theft market? Having "legitimate" businesses report on their interactions with CCs seems minimally invasive, as compared with other extremely invasive practices already being used by law "enforcement".

Given that (IIUC) most stolen CCs are broken down for the expensive metals they contain, rather than being sold in a black aftermarket, it's unlikely that police can just find a stolen CC and look at its serial number to determine whether or not it's been stolen.

Are you arguing that we should ignore the issue of stolen CCs because any action is worse, or do you have a reasonable suggestion as to how to address this issue? That's not a jab at you. You seem to have strong feelings about this (I don't), so I'd like to understand what potential alternatives might exist to the new law. If you'd expand on that, I'd be most appreciative!

While I don't disagree with the idea that police should do, you know, actual police work, rather than trample on the privacy of the population (e.g., all these calls for encryption back doors as well as the stuff I mention above), it's not clear to me what the issue might be here.

[socialismisok]

Don't ever buy art, I guess.

[giantg2]

Haven't there been major scandals in the appraisal and verification, as well as art still being stolen and successfully sold in black markets?

I'm hoping a law helps, but I won't hold my breath.

[kybernetyk]

It's funny how you have to argue on HACKER news against government overreach and you get downvoted. It's actually not funny. It's sad. I remember a time the hacker community was very weary of the government. Today they seem to defend it no matter what.

[socialismisok]

Hackers in the sense that HN uses the term have never been a monoculture. "Government" isn't a monolithic concept either. Some is good but some is not.

Plenty of hackers, for instance, supported the creation of the EPA. I know plenty of permaculture hackers and mycologist hackers who very much want the government regulating pollutants and safety.

[krapht]

Just wait until you hear about the history of anti-fencing laws dating back to the 1600s. You're missing out on centuries of outage.

[catiopatio]

Ridiculously targeted laws like this are quite a new invention.

I see that the “[feeling of] safety above all” contingent is quite voracious about defending this latest government intrusion, so I’ll stop giving them comments to downvote.

[Test0129]

I don't think a law like that is really a problem. There are already laws on the books similar to it (pawn shop laws and such) where KYC is a big thing to prevent the fencing of stolen goods.

It can be as simple as this:

1. Joe brings in a cat

2. Store takes the cat, but writes down Joes important information (DL #, name, address, etc)

3. If Joe brings a new cat in within some reasonable time period factoring in possibly fixing a used car or something he's reported to the authorities for suspicion of theft.

Exceptions to (3) can be made to people who can present the valid credentials of an auto repair shop and are operating as agents of that shop. Then the shop can be placed in the record book and tracked with different standards.

With this in place you will only be able to fence X number of cats easily where X is the number of shops within some reasonable distance. You could even make this national if you really wanted to prevent transportation over a border.

Sure, you could argue this won't fix anything because shops that are dirty will remain dirty. This is simply solved by having an already existing traffic enforcement body once a year check books. If your books are out of order your business is closed and an investigation is done to see if you're acting as a fence. Same as pawn shops.

There is absolutely no "intrusion" to speak of here. You are in possession of a highly valuable, commonly stolen item. KYC by a company should be a minimum standard. Do you think that requiring a car title and asking for registration, etc when you sell a car to a lot is also an intrusion? I'm afraid to ask you if you even know what fencing actually is. No one is saying you can't cut your own cat off and sell it privately. The goal is to eliminate the easiest possible routes for fencing and make it not only difficult but also expensive criminally to continue.

[heleninboodler]

> There is absolutely no "intrusion" to speak of here.

Well, there is, actually. I think it's a bit histrionic to worry about it, but we definitely have intruded on Joe's freedom to buy and sell cats. Maybe he's into cat arbitrage. Maybe he makes them himself. Maybe he's got a lot of cars he doesn't need to drive and is strapped for cash. The point of the sticklers for freedom here is that regular citizens shouldn't need an explanation for why they're buying or selling a particular thing to another private party, and therefore tracking the fact that they did is an intrusion.

It's not technically wrong. It's an intrusion. It just happens to be an intrusion I think is reasonable.

[skeeter2020]

Maybe it's how you frame anyone who wants actionable solutions as screaming "WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?"... Applying very narrow information collection requirements on a rare act that is prone to illegal activity is exactly the type of "government intrusion" we should welcome. If you want a hill to die on, pick something more meaningful.

[tqi]

Something tells me you're the kind of person who considers both people who prioritize safety more than you and less than you idiots...

[x86_64Ubuntu]

>...This is worse than the original problem. When did we become so comfortable with the government mandating presentation of papers and tracking of private transactions?

The U.S. has always been like this, especially since taking down the mob in the 70's and the War On Drugs in the 80's. Out of all the laws, most people aren't going to be hemmed up with catalytic converter KYC compared to things such as the War On Drugs and the watering down of the 4th amendment.

[dsfyu404ed]

This is a dumb law. It treats the symptom not the problem. There is an existing market for getting around KYC requirements. Just search "buying cats" on FB or CL and you will find plenty of them. These people buy cats from the thieves who are too known to the local yards to deal directly with them and pocket a fraction of the profit. You can keep adding laws but the material here is so valuable that the market can support a lot more middle men if that's what it takes to give everyone plausible deniability.

The fundamental problem here is that pretty much every car has a fairly unsecured cat underneath it and that law enforcement DGAF. The problem will persist until you fix one of those two.

[nine_k]

Does not a law like this allow to actually GAF and start acting on leads towards resellers at FB, etc? Without resale being criminalized, what grounds would police have to even look at the middlemen?

[georgeplusplus]

Between the surge of violent crime, defunding police budgets, and firing of city police forces due to vaccine status, inflation causing massive poverty. Do you think police departments have the resources to tackle these massive amount of larceny cases?

I'd like to be respectable with regards to opposing views about this but wtf did people think would happen following these things?

[chrisweekly]

Mexico -> New Mexico, right?

[labster]

Ah yes, for all of those thieves looking for a quick buck driving 1300 miles round-trip to Gallup instead of a quick hop down to TJ where they can grab contraband for the return trip. I guess instead of drugs, the New Mexico bandits can bring back some of those cheap (cheep) small-cage eggs back to California, but they’ll have to be fast, like Burt Reynolds did with his eighteen-wheeler.

[bdcravens]

Burt Reynolds drove the Trans Am. Jerry Reed drove the eighteen wheeler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_and_the_Bandit

[mindcrime]

The boys are thirsty in Atlanta and there's beer in Texarkana and we'll bring it back no matter what it takes...

[Arainach]

No, Mexico. California doesn't border New Mexico, but they do border Mexico.

[mushbino]

That's Old Mexico

[dylan604]

They could always implement a 3 day waiting period and require background checks. That's worked so well in other markets /s

[acomjean]

When my car was totaled I had to buy a new hood. When I brought the car to the state salvage inspection station they checked the VIN #s of the car (front and back). The work was done in New York and it was a new after market hood and there was paperwork attesting to that. There was a pile of a couple doors and some wheels that had been confiscated because they were from stolen vehicles. So in MA there must already some sort of process for tracking this stuff. Won’t help for raw material and it’s probably not fool proof but it seemed to be something.

‘Bills of sale evidencing acquisition of all major component parts used to restore the vehicle. If the vehicle was wholly or partially restored with “used” parts, the receipts must contain the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) of the vehicle(s) from which the part(s) were taken.’

https://www.mass.gov/info-details/salvage-inspections

[dsfyu404ed]

>There was a pile of a couple doors and some wheels that had been confiscated because they were from stolen vehicles.

The assumptions baked into your comment are probably the most Massachusetts thing I've heard all week.

The yard just has to check that the vins match the paperwork and that you match the name on the title.

Doors aren't serialized (models that put vehicle info on the driver's door not withstanding). Wheels aren't serialized. Those were sitting there because some employee wanted them, either for personal use or to sell.

Source: Worked in industry, in MA no less.

[User23]

It used to be that back when local cops cared about property crime this was standard operating procedure. When I was a kid if you etched a serial number into your bike frame and parts and registered it with the local PD you were practically assured you’d get your bike back when it inevitably showed up at a pawn shop or similar.

[midoridensha]

It's still like that here in Japan: bikes are all registered with the police and have stickers with their registration numbers. When they're stolen (which is usually done by drunk people wanting a quick ride home, or teenagers using them for joyrides) and recovered, the police will bring the bike back to the registered owner. Usually, the best way to avoid theft is to simply lock your bike's rear wheel so it can't be ridden away easily.

[adrr]

Why was property crime much higher back then? We’re at historic lows.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

[User23]

When the cops don’t show up to take a report it doesn’t show up in crime report statistics.

[adrr]

Do you have data backing that up? The data is all FOIA-able like calls to the police department and dispatch data.

There's also insurance claim data which requires a police report.

[Rebelgecko]

Does FOIA data include how many calls the police don't pick up? I've literally never gotten an answer when calling my local PD's non-emergency number

[adrr]

Assume you could get the raw phone log including non answers. I thought they had voice mailboxes?

[whoooooo123]

When it's widely perceived that the police don't care about property crime, people don't call the police in the first place.

[User23]

Case in point: https://www.wlbt.com/2022/04/21/residents-say-jpd-dispatcher...

[Gareth321]

This is backwards. Do you have data to prove that police are responding to all stolen property reports?

[adrr]

How is this backwards? Person made a claim that the government provided data is inaccurate. You can't make those claims unless you provide data.

[brian_cunnie]

> When the cops don’t show up to take a report

In San Francisco I didn't need the cops to show up to file a report--I filled it out online! It's easier than ever to file a report these days.

[rydifyrhffh]

I'm curious where you live that they don't still care tbh. In my experience police do what they're allowed that will be effective. But if you have a DA who refuses to prosecute people or you pass local laws that make doing their job in a manner that gets results impossible then they tend not to waste their time.

[magicalist]

If you've never experienced the indifference of a cop taking a property crime report and the complete lack of follow up, just pick a place and you can look at non-violent crime clearance rate.

They really don't care.

[brian_cunnie]

> They [the police] really don't care

I don't think it's something you can lay at the feet of the SF Police Department. I asked Pete McLaughlin, SFPD (retired), why the police don't go after bike thieves more aggressively.

"Our hands are tied," he said. "They [the thieves] know the most we can do is give them a citation, and they'll be out that afternoon."

California has a history of being lenient with non-violent crime, which is appropriate in some cases, but maybe not in others. Maybe leniency is the wrong approach for some of these bike thieves.

But it's complicated. I heard Jerry Brown (former California Governor) talk about how ~10% of the state budget goes to prisons, and he's not comfortable with such a large amount, and I agree--throwing people in jail is expensive!

[mrguyorama]

Asking a cop about why they didn't do their job is like asking a dev how their bug ended up in prod. You'll get an answer, but it will neither sate your desire for improvement, or actually shed light on any systemic issues.

[rydifyrhffh]

As it happens I experienced exactly this scenario when a homeless person broke into my house while I was asleep, stole a bunch of stuff, and then made off with my car. The cop certainly didn't solve all my problems but they were clear about what they needed to know and what I'd need to do if I wanted to hear back from the city when the person was found. If the police in your area don't care it seems far more likely that they either don't feel allowed to police effectively or they feel their efforts will be wasted.

[Test0129]

Where I live they don't even send police for non-injury accidents anymore. Even if there's a hit and run no police get sent.

Property crimes don't matter anymore. When my friends got their catalytic converters stolen the police never even bothered to show up. Taking statements may not get their cats back, but it goes towards building up a large enough case to justify a unit to handle it.

You are correct though. Our DA is a "soft on crime" type. As a result, all forms of criminal behavior have increased dramatically in the last several years.

[astrange]

SF recalled their supposedly "not hard on crime" DA, mostly because he offended the local Asian voters, but the new supposedly "hard on crime" DA in practice doesn't seem to be having much effect. Similarly Chesa didn't oversee Oakland or any other nearby areas but I've still seen people who live there blame things on him.

People generally have no idea how much crime there is. If you asked most people which of NYC and Oklahoma is safer they'd get it wrong whether or not they lived there.

[olliej]

No they recalled him because he was refusing to prosecute anyone for anything because he was mad that his terrorist parents were in jail for being terrorists.

There is a wide gap between liberal “people shouldn’t go to jail because they were on drugs while poor” and “no one should be prosecuted for anything”

[astrange]

He charged people more often than the previous DA. Like I said, nobody actually looks at any of the numbers here.

https://missionlocal.org/2022/04/chesa-boudin-files-more-cha...

But he was insensitive in public when there was a wave of anti-Asian crimes, and turnout was low in his initial election. Not sure about the recall.

[vkou]

Seattle just elected a "hard on crime" Republican prosecutor, who rode in on a wave of promises of prosecuting every misdemeanor, including the backlog (Her opponent was going to prioritize, and drop most of the backlog.)

She got into office, paid a lot of money to legal consultants, and a few months later, announced that she will be... Dropping the backlog of misdemeanors.

[seanmcdirmid]

She gave up on some of the backlog because the evidence was stale and there were bigger fish to fry. It’s not “giving up” rather declaring bankruptcy so you can focus on more current and serious crimes. This is what happens when you are passed a 3 year backlog from your predecessor.

[vkou]

> She gave up on some of the backlog because the evidence was stale and there were bigger fish to fry.

She attacked that exact same line of reasoning when running for election.

Unsurprisingly, once actually elected, as everyone had said all along, it turned out to be the only way to go forward.

And, of course, the promised reductions in crime are, well, not exactly in any hurry to materialize.

On the one hand, it's a plus that she prioritized good sense over dogma, but on the other hand, it's a little strange how her policies are only bad when its the other party that's advocating for them.

[XorNot]

Those goal posts must motorized with how fast they're being moved these days.

[olliej]

State your sources if you’re taking the position that police solve crime.

If you’re referring to that SF DA that was refusing to prosecute people that was a case where their public platform was to stop over criminalizing but it turned out that their parents were terrorists and they just wanted them out of jail.

[alar44]

Real life isn't a detective show. Cops don't task resources with hunting down your stolen TV. At best, you may get it back when someone tries to sell it to a pawn shop.

[dsfyu404ed]

More like you get it back when the drug dealer who's thieving client trades it to him in lieu of cash gets busted and the cops comb his apartment looking for anything else they can charge him with and check the serial vs their list.

[bombcar]

There’s really only three reasons (or four) to report theft:

1. It’s serialized and you want it on the recovery lists

2. You need the report for an insurance claim

3. You want to be counted in statistics used to determine policing levels

4. The item could be used in a crime and you want to be cleared (think stolen car, stolen gun)

[dymk]

If the DA doesn’t care, the cop doesn’t care.

[astrange]

The trick is that the cops can stop caring and everyone will blame the DA; it's similar to how voters always think "crime" is increasing recently no matter the actual statistics or how safe the area they live in is.

American police are similar to a permanent paramilitary class like Janissaries or samurai. The local governments don't actually control them and as a civilian encountering them means they may kill you for honor violations.

[jprd]

All day this.

Go ahead and try to find the guidelines, charter, mission, etc. for any municipality policing force. If there is one. Now try and define the actual jurisdiction they have, and the _requirements_ for fulfilling their charge.

How many US citizens younger than 70, without FU $$, do not immediately act like they need to be on their "best behavior" when a Uniformed Officer drives (or less likely, walks/bikes) through? Now add any attribute that makes you stick out from the rest of the community. Does it still feel like they are there to protect you?

Skin color? Religious attire that isn't a suit w/tie or a dress? Hair color? Music? Having way too much fun in a public place while being younger than 30?

Here's a good place to start: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/545/748/#tab-opi...

[seanmcdirmid]

I heard that stolen cats are sent by the rings to China for recycling/extraction. So just looking at domestic resellers isn’t going to help much, and you need to start peeking into shipping containers that head back to China usually very empty.

[kazinator]

It's literally "going out of style".

Gotta get all the cat converters you can before all the cars are electric!

[somerandomqaguy]

I'd expect the charging cables to be the easy target then. EV owners, please correct me if I'm wrong but I can't imagine that the charging port would be able resist a cordless drill for more then 4 or 5 seconds. And from what I've seen of the CCS connectors, Home Depot probably carries big drill bits long enough drill into into and completely destroy the locking mechanism.

Drill in, destroy the the charging port on the car, retrieve the cable and sell on Ebay. How much do one of those charging cables go? $200? If not, and if the owner does something to lock the cable, cutting it for the copper is still worth a few dollars.

[judge2020]

This is already a thing in terms of Tesla superchargers being sawed off to be sold for scrap. Copper is pretty valuable.

https://electrek.co/2022/02/07/tesla-supercharger-cables-sto...

[modeless]

I wonder if this is part of the reason the new superchargers have liquid cooled cables. Less copper. Also, supercharger cables are way shorter than any other charger.

[skykooler]

I guess they can do that because all the cars have the charge port in the same spot.

[danans]

> And from what I've seen of the CCS connectors, Home Depot probably carries big drill bits long enough drill into into and completely destroy the locking mechanism.

> If not, and if the owner does something to lock the cable, cutting it for the copper is still worth a few dollars.

Worth the risk of electrocution with a possibly live 50-350kW flowing through a CCS charger cable? Seems like a different level of risk than a catalytic converter.

[somerandomqaguy]

I commented to the other fellow, but long story short; wasn't thinking about the high voltage fast charging lines, but rather little level 1 chargers people would use to charge cars parked on the street over night. Intact, they're worth a fair amount and at least first glance there doesn't seem to be a lot of risk involved if done properly.

[modeless]

Why would you go for one that's plugged in to a car? There are plenty of unoccupied ones around and they don't have 800 volts running through them.

[somerandomqaguy]

Wasn't really thinking about the high voltage fast chargers; you can just cut those straight off the super charging station without a car there. I was thinking more along the lines of those little Level 1 CCS chargers that someone would use to charge a parked car on the street overnight.

And aim here is to retrieve the charging cable intact. If you do it right the drill bit shouldn't be getting anywhere close to the energized lines. Just an example, check this data sheet for an EV inlet port: https://www.phoenixcontact.com/us/products/1162148/pdf

The locking mechanism is located to the side. You don't need to remove the locking pin as it's recessed in the charging handle itself, you just need to destroy the mechanism behind the pin so that there's enough void there for you to jostle the pin out and free the connector.

In theory it should actually be quite safe for a thief.

[uni_rule]

there are "easier" ways to steal copper

[TheLoafOfBread]

Batteries will get stolen for same reason.

[gpm]

I doubt it. Catalytic converters are stolen because they're valuable and easy to make off with. Car batteries are frickin giant, and if you try and take only a piece you get a giant fire instead of a valuable source of rare metals. They don't seem like a great thing to steal.

[germinalphrase]

Agreed. It’s thirty seconds with a battery powered reciprocating saw to remove a cat which is also light enough to be carried by one person. There’s no way EV batteries could be accessed and transported away so quickly.

[kybernetyk]

A new incentive to steal cars then. Steal car, harvest battery cells worth $20k+, ditch the rest of the car. No silly VIN numbers, etc. Just anonymous 18650 cells (or whatever they use now).

[ridgered4]

I was under the impression most car thefts were already to chop them up for parts anyway so this doesn't seem like a new incentive.

[Workaccount2]

Wait till the stories come out about criminals discovery what an extremely low impedance source of 700V does to your body.

[Gibbon1]

I'm pretty sure the organized rings salvage the ceramic out of cats and then ship that overseas via backhauled shipping containers.

[dimitrios1]

You are really discounting the ingenuity of criminals. If they can steal 4 tires with wheel locks off your car, they can steal your undercarriage battery.

[Someone1234]

EV batteries are becoming STRUCTURAL, meaning they make up the core vehicle shell of the car, use hardened steel reinforcement and weight 1-2K pounds. They're also super dangerous if punctured. It would be easier to steal the whole vehicle than to steal the battery alone.

I'd go so far as to say that an EV is a glorified "battery with wheels" since the actual drive components are a minority of the weight/complexity/cost. If a criminal can steal the whole EV, they will, if they cannot then stealing the battery alone isn't realistic.

[kazinator]

Non-removable batteries, wow.

I worry that a parallel development might happen in smartphones.

[MBCook]

It’s THOUSANDS of pounds. It’s not a trivial operation.

It may happen, but it will never be anywhere near as common as cat theft.

One is safe, trivial, fast, and pays a lot. The other is extremely difficult, possibly lethal, and can’t easily be melted down for profit like a cat.

[dylan604]

As connected as modern EV cars are, stealing one would seem like a dumb decision since they'll know exactly where the car is. I know chop shops are quick, but I still wouldn't want to knowingly bring something with tracking devices into my criminal lair.

[linsomniac]

Really? I'm pretty sure I have the tools in my garage to steal 4 wheels with locking nuts. I'm absolutely certain I couldn't steal the battery in my EV without stealing the whole EV. Which has a GPS tracker built into it.

[mechanical_bear]

Faraday cages and transport trucks. The next EV theft wave.

[themitigating]

A tesla model 3 battery weighs over 1000lbs

[TheLoafOfBread]

They are able to lift whole car in a daylight to steal a catalytic converter. 500kg battery is nothing.

[themitigating]

Let's say you get the battery out by unbolting it in a short amount of time. You'd have to let it drop onto something to then remove it from the car. In one video a person used 2x4s then pulled it out with another vehicle.

Now what? How do you get it into another vehicle to transport? There's no place for a small crane to attach to. You would need some sort of hydraulic lift that would be similar to a pallet jack. Once it's up you then need to move it onto the truck which would be difficult. Maybe you can drag it on the back of a truck using a pickup bed mounted winch.

Finally what do you do with it? It's nearly impossible to remove the individual cells, they are incased in some sort of protective foam that you have to chisel out. Sell the entire thing? Tesla will know the battery is stolen, car reads the serial number, bam, back to you.

Not to mention how large it is, how many could you do in one night?

More importantly why did you make your post? Do you have EVs so much that anytime even a slight advantage comes along you have to dispute it? Maybe you just like to argue. It's just really weird.

[mrguyorama]

Nobody is jacking up a car to get to the cat. You just slide under with a $50 harbor freight sawzall and spend two minutes making two cuts.

[1970-01-01]

I think e-bikes are already easy prey in large cities.

[danans]

Only when the thieves have robotic exoskeletons.

[drewmol]

I’d be ok with a KYC law for the exoskeletons, if that becomes a problem

[TheLoafOfBread]

Or a simple jack lift, pallet trolley and few pulleys. Just like on manufacturing line, why it should be complicated?

[gmiller123456]

    They should also consider targeting and auditing shops that buy used car parts

In this case they took out the palladium and sold it to a refinery. Also, VINed parts, like airbags, have been found being shipped to countries that don't care about or can't enforce the sale of them.

So, it'd eat into some of the criminal's profits, but probably not enough to significantly reduce theft. So efforts are likely better spent elsewhere.

[cdr]

The kingpin at the top of the food chain sold the metals to a refinery. There were many levels below him of catalytic converters being bought and sold before they got to the kingpin.

[bcrosby95]

My mother-in-law's neighborhood has had 5 stolen in the past couple of months. And it isn't that big of a neighborhood. Maybe 50 houses in total?

[giantg2]

They already have a lot of scrutiny on used catalytic converters. It sounds like this ring might have been smelting the precious scrap.

[SoftTalker]

Yeah it happened to my car like 6 or 8 years ago. I called around to salvage yards to try to buy a used exhaust. I needed basically everything from the manifold back due to where the thief made his cuts. Every yard told me that they aren't allowed to deal in used exhaust systems. I had to buy a new aftermarket exhaust or a new one from the dealer.

[Melting_Harps]

> Every yard told me that they aren't allowed to deal in used exhaust systems.

This is uniquely a CA issue, some after-market vendors wont even sip to CA/NY; however, most states will allow you to retrieve them from junked cars and will personally do that for you if you are willing to pay for their time--most have pick a part solutions as it's cheaper on labour to do it that way since dismantling/sorting/testing is very labour/time intensive.

I bought a few ex manifolds and cats for several cars from other states and shipped into CA when I worked in the auto industry, it just wasn't cheap.

Because good luck getting a decent ex manifold for a 1968 BMW 2002 or 1991 850i from Bavaria and you will soon be so sticker shocked you will pay whatever it takes to get it state-side, especially since one of those cars is smog-exempt and the dealer is charging you every hour your car is taking up a rack waiting for the RO to be completed.

[dsfyu404ed]

>Every yard told me that they aren't allowed to deal in used exhaust systems.

This is a long standing emissions law thing that predates theft issues.

They want people to drop big coin on something (be that an exhaust system or a vehicle financed at a borderline usury rate from the local BHPH lot) that will be in compliance for awhile rather than slap a used cat on that will barely pass the test and go out of compliance shortly thereafter.

[bmj]

In my state, which has an annual emissions inspection, I have yet to meet a non-dealer mechanic who will not do everything possible to get a vehicle with a bad cat through the inspection process.

[bombcar]

CA added new machines to testing that report every test to try to slow this down but every mechanic knows where to find the old machines that can run tests without reporting.

They just want to get you on the road and they’re damn good about it (and to be fair much of what they do to pass actually fixes real issues - i went from being a gross polluter to passing when the mechanic replaced the spark plug wire that was grounding out).

[dsfyu404ed]

>CA added new machines to testing that report every test to try to slow this down but every mechanic knows where to find the old machines that can run tests without reporting.

>They just want to get you on the road and they’re damn good about it

Don't worry, the east coast has a solution for this harmonious alignment of business and customer incentives: 'safety' inspections

I took the training back when I lived in MA. The 3rd party that did the training (same contractor that did the computer systems at the time) basically said that the state's priority is clean air and that safety inspections only exist to make the combined safety+emissions license lucrative for a shop to hold and create an incentive not to subvert the interest of the state (by fudging emissions inspections) in favor of the customer (who the mechanic wants a good relationship with). Basically they want doing business via the state (by using your inspection license to make a bunch of work) to be more lucrative than any business you get helping customers dodge the state's interest. The lady running the training even started it by congratulating the class on "this lucrative next step in our careers and businesses" (which is somewhat hilarious because there is very little easy money in automotive repair).

That said, by the time I got out of that industry (mid 00s) they had stopped using tailpipe sniffers (at least in MA) and the economic realities of parts vs labor had more or less made any cheating beyond what the vehicle owner could do themselves irrelevant.

[grogenaut]

install a cat shield aka a plate that covers your cat. Mine got stolen, a shield was $350, they totaled the car for over $3500 by taking the cat if I would have fixed it due to fucking up the exhaust pipes and o2 sensor.

[reducesuffering]

Shield is only a possible time-lengthening deterrent. I installed one and my cat was still stolen. I can't say how many attempts it deterred in the mean time, if at all.

[grogenaut]

interesting that's a determined thief. the one who got my cat just used a sawzall.