Can you please not fulminate or post flamebait to HN? We're trying for curious conversation here and those are two of the things that most prevent that. That's why they're against the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Of course this doesn't mean you're wrong—it means you need to present your view thoughtfully and in a way that appeals to curiosity. That's especially important if your view happens to be right, so it's in your interest. (I'm adding this because the field around childbirth is intense and there are such strong feelings about it—justifiably.)
And it looked like a butcher shop to you? I honestly have no idea what you're getting this from. Do you remember you/your wife giving vaginal birth to her placenta? Didn't that look like a butcher shop?
He might mean butcher shop as in being treated like a piece of meat to be handled as conveniently as possible, rather than consulted or even allowed to guide her own birthing experience. My wife had made similar remarks.
I understand why a phrase like that can be emotionally activating, but please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. You made your point already. Escalating ("your doctors sucked") is unhelpful.
What are you talking about? This doesn’t have anything to do with the quality of individual doctors, or whether any particular procedure has value. (At least, as I understand the point of the descriptions of systems in action in the article.)
Is there data on this? Specifically I wonder if women who refused it for a first birth still refuse them for subsequent births (or maybe they change their mind?).
I don't have any good data and would also be interested. Anecdotally, I do know women who didn't use them at first and started using them later for multiple reasons: aging, advice of medical team changing, unexpectedly low pain tolerance, and in a couple of cases, just wanting to experience an epidural with the last kid. :)
I also know some who stopped using epidurals, but fewer and most of them simply had become interested in more natural births between children.
Wife never had a C section, but how they treat you until you get discharged would be literally torture in another context. Wife got woken up every 30 mins to 1 hour for this and that test, paperwork, questions, etc.
You are paying a lot of money to be in that hospital bed, you can tell them to pound sand and let you sleep. They will get pissy but I figured after what my wife went though having some nurses think I'm a asshole is the better part of the deal.
> You mean a generally-recommended-as-medically-necessary-only procedure that would result in far more complications were it not performed?
A Caesarean is often performed even when it is not medically necessary. Hence "why are so many babies born around 8:00 AM"? Additionally, above a certain rate in industrialized countries, they are not even associated with better birth outcomes.
> And anyway, people get surgeries all the time, how is this any different?
Because childbirth is not an injury or deformity that requires fixing (or any intervention) in the large majority of cases. Surgery should be done when medically necessary. A Caesarean has many potential side effects for the mother and the infant, and doing it just to hurry things up is (IMO) unethical.
What leads to many Caesareans is the "cascade of interventions" which might include unnecessary induced labor (e.g. if a mother is not dilating "quickly enough"), an early epidural, or continuous EFM. Many of these interventions, including the ones I listed, increase the likelihood of having a Caesarean.
In such a highly emotional situation, many mothers will feel pressured to do what their medical provider recommends. So, yes, it's technically true that it's the mother's decision, but many mothers don't realize they have the right to refuse these interventions, or are too scared to advocate for themselves in these situations, or are not fully aware of the risks -- both to the mother and the baby. In that sense, the decision is largely made by the medical provider, and this decision is often made because of an unnecessary urgency to get the birth done (or other reasons, such as a lack of experience with vaginal births or a fear of being sued, but in any case these reasons are not primarily the mother's). That is the part I was referring to as unethical.
To be clear, if it is medically necessary, a Caesarean should absolutely be done.
Personal experience with the mother telling the nurse emphatically not to use an intervention, to have it ignored and done anyway at the behest of a doctor that isn't even on site. It was convenient for the doctor and had nothing to do with the health of the mother.
Also a personal experience of a nurse yelling at the mother to stop pushing when the baby is already partially out because the doctor is not there yet. Some babies just don't care to wait for the doctor if he is late.
Unfortunately, in my personal experience, the mothers desires are not generally held in high regard inside of a hospital.
Many doctors nudge, or even push, decisions towards things that are convenient or good for them. Time table for the birth, treatment that enriches them... This includes unnecessary surgeries and labor inducement.
The decision is left up to the mother, sort of. Inside the hospital is an environment that the doctors are very familiar and the mother, not. It is very interested in following procedure, within which the doctors orders are held in high regard and the woman's desires not so much.
If you try to buck the desires of the hospital+doctor you had better have a will of steel and a willingness to walk out. Ornery nurses and doctors can make your stay an absolute hell.
In times and in countries the number of C sections have varied widely from "you might as well get it because it's quick and safe" to "nobody should have one unless they are literally carrying Julius Caesar".
And poking the "birth options bear" is not something you want to do unless you're really in for a fight. There are strong opinions available.
Of course this doesn't mean you're wrong—it means you need to present your view thoughtfully and in a way that appeals to curiosity. That's especially important if your view happens to be right, so it's in your interest. (I'm adding this because the field around childbirth is intense and there are such strong feelings about it—justifiably.)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33437247.