[em500]

1. Europeans are not "constantly being told not to give out our bank details". That's an American thing, apparently due to a quirk that allows anyone with a US bank account number to draw money from that account. Euro banks certainly don't work that way. Having a Euro bank account number only allows people to transfer to, not from that account.

2. Why do you believe that an instant payment system requires us to "give out our bank details to every stranger we meet at the market" when numerous countries have already implemented such systems that don't require that?

[matthewdgreen]

It is remarkable the extent to which the US system is a disaster and has poisoned our view of what financial services can/should do.

[CoUHKT57BSe]

1. I am European (Irish) and I am constantly being told not to give out bank details. I don't mean people are always telling me that, but when ever there is information about being safe and avoiding scams they always say to not give out bank details, and that is info for EU people. There are many examples online.

2. I was replying to a message, and in that message the user gave the example that at a farmers market someone could pay using a bank transfer. If I'm a farmer at that market I'm going to have to give my bank account details to all the strangers who want to buy a few apples from me, so they can instantly transfer money to my account.

[em500]

1. With bank details I mean name+act number. Of course we are also being told not to share login details etc. But here in the Netherlands tiny businesses and individuals do not hesitate giving you their account number if they expect payments from you. Giving your bank account was the defacto way to receive payments before moving to instant payment links. It still is for most businesses, even tiny ones like farmers and plumbers.

2. I still don't know why you think it's a problem for a farmer at a market to share their bank account number for people to pay them. Pretty much any business bank account number here is public information. But even if for some reason you think that it's hugely problematic, it's technically pretty simple to setup an instant payment system that don't require making any account number public.

[CoUHKT57BSe]

Yes I understand what everyone is saying, that giving out the account number is not dangerous in itself and that businesses all over the world do it so they can accept payments, but generally the advice given to individuals is not to give out those details to random strangers (not because they can then take money out of it, but more likely use it for further phishing or whatever). My only point was that the message I originally replied to went totally against this general advice so I couldn't see it being a huge game changer as they had implied.

[rocketbop]

Irish here and I can't recall ever hearing that advice... I can remember banks saying things like that they'll never ask you for your pin number.

[CoUHKT57BSe]

Fine, here is a direct example, from the Bank of Ireland security website: https://www.bankofireland.com/security-zone/fraudster-tactic... "They may claim that your account has been compromised and ask you for your bank card or bank account details"

The GENERAL (I will super emphasize this word this time - G.E.N.E.R.A.L) advice from financial institutions for a very long time has been that scammers want your personal information, so to stay safe you should not give bank info to strangers. They also reccommend avoiding bank transfers, money grams and other such things and only using secure card payments.

Again, this is GENERAL advice, if someone wants someone else to send them money they can of course give them their account number and get the money transfered, I never said there was anything wrong with bank transfers, just that the GENERAL advice is to avoid them, they are often associated with scammers.

There was a prank call show on tv about 10 years ago called fonejacker (UK tv) and one of the characters used to ring people up and ask for their bank account details (example sketch here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA3zhzT1wDo ) and funnily enough, no one that I recall ever gave them out.

If 2 people want to make a transaction via bank transfer they can, but the GENERAL advice has always been to avoid them and don't be handing out bank details to strangers. Obviously, "dont give bank details to strangers" is not an exact quote from a financial institution, it is just the GENERAL theme of the overall advice to avoid being scammed.

[newaccount74]

> I am constantly being told not to give out bank details

You shouldn't give out usernames and passwords. Your bank account number is not a secret.

> I'm going to have to give my bank account details to all the strangers who want to buy a few apples from me

I don't know what it's like in Ireland, but literally every business in Austria prints their bank account number on the invoice so you can pay it. Bank account numbers are not secret. There's not much people can do with a bank account number apart from send money to it.

[messe]

> I don't know what it's like in Ireland, but literally every business in Austria prints their bank account number on the invoice so you can pay it. Bank account numbers are not secret. There's not much people can do with a bank account number apart from send money to it.

It's pretty much the same in Ireland, I've no idea what the other commenter thinks can be accomplished with an IBAN.

[CoUHKT57BSe]

I was never talking about what can be accomplished with an IBAN. I was only saying that the idea of a world where everyone is going around buying things in the street with bank transfers is very unlikely as it contradicts the general advice given out about not using bank transfers and giving out bank details to strangers.

Seen as you are also Irish you will appreciate this example: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer/common_consum...

Under the header 'Protect your money', the first bullet point is never use bank tranfers.

[em500]

> Under the header 'Protect your money', the first bullet point is never use bank tranfers.

The first bullet point is

"Never send money by bank transfer unless you are absolutely certain you are sending it to someone you know and trust. Sending money by bank transfer is like sending someone cash and generally, once you send it, it’s gone"

which is about paying by bank transfers, and very different from "never hand out your bank account to receive payments", which pretty much every business (that do not want the keep their proceeds off the record) does by default in many (most?) European countries.

Sure, if some stranger on the street asked for my bank account (or my name for that matter) out of the blue, I wouldn't do so. But for Craigslist type in-person sales, people here have no problem giving their bank account to receive payments. The typical fraud is here is asking for payments of to be delivered goods and subsequently not sending the promised goods, which is what I understand your link is also warning about. Because European bank payments are mostly push-type, that are largely irreversible. For direct in-person sales (such as farmers on a market), that's not an issue.

[CoUHKT57BSe]

Yes, the full bullet point is more specific, but the average joe/jane reading that is quite likely to takeaway 'Never send money by bank transfer'or maybe just simpler, 'bank transfers are dodgy'. That website is a very reputable source of information in Ireland so Irish people are going to follow it's advice. For decades a lot of information about staying safe online and avoiding scams has given the GENERAL advice to avoid bank transfers and never give out your bank details to strangers, this isn't something I've just made up today for the sake of this HN thread, it's the GENERAL advice given out by financial institutions for a long time. So a system where everyone is giving out their bank details and paying for everyday expenses with bank transfers seems pretty unlikely, even if those transfers are instant.

[ls15]

> I've no idea what the other commenter thinks can be accomplished with an IBAN.

Someone could transfer money to you and write "thanks for the plutonium" into the reference field.

[messe]

I'm Irish as well, and your IBAN (bank account number) is not a secret. There's no real harm in giving it out. Hospitals, for example, provide their own IBAN in correspondence for payments via SEPA transfer.

You'll find as well that most of your banking apps allow you to save the IBAN of various contacts. I have the IBANs of a few friends and family members saved to my phone that way, and the only thing I can do with that information is send them money.

[CoUHKT57BSe]

I use 3 banking apps (PermanentTSB, Revolut and N26) and have never noticed any such feature, which ones have you seen that in?

[DocTomoe]

> Having a Euro bank account number only allows people to transfer to, not from that account.

At least in the case of Germany, this is factually incorrect: We do have Lastschrift, which is eerily similar to "drawing money from an account". Sure, we can get that money back during a six week period IF the receiver still has it, but it is a hassle.

[em500]

Ok, I admit that I don't know the particulars of every Euro area bank system. But if you're referring to SEPA Direct Debit, only commercial clients can do that, after going through tons of hoops and paperwork. (In practice, all SEPA Direct Debits requests I've experienced in the last few years required me to first transfer a cent the them, to confirm that I'm actually in control of that account. )

[nottorp]

> That's an American thing, apparently due to a quirk that allows anyone with a US bank account number to draw money from that account.

What? I thought the main problem was how easy it is to do identity theft in the US. You mean I can steal someone's money with just their account number ?!?

[rwmj]

In the UK you can set up a direct debit with just the bank account details (not quite the same as withdrawing money, but still enough to scam someone). The rest of your comment is quite correct though.

[IanCal]

Although there is at least the safety of the direct debit system, where if you flag it then the bank must immediately pay you what was taken.