[deaddabe]

> You may also look into Kernel Programming for a lucrative systems programming career.

This is the road I have taken since I started to work professionally, but I yet have to find a lucrative job. I know that I am paid more than microcontroller devs, but less than web devs. The market for kernel developers is not that big either.

[boredtofears]

That's insane to me... getting into systems programming recently I am well aware of how much harder it is than web dev.

[larve]

I’ve been in both web and embedded for the last 20 years, and to me web dev “done right” is just as much if not more complicated than embedded, and very similar. In both cases, you have a distributed systems (everything action you take, system wise, is asynchronous, and very uncertain). Debugging is a pain in both cases, because you have only limited access to the system under test (especially in the field), and things like minification / optimizing compilers make it hard to necessarily track bugs.

Embedded has the advantage that you can usually trust your peripherals more (they’re not a user that randomly presses CTRL-R), there is less framework and thirdparty stuff in your way, and the timing constraints are usually better understood. Webdev also suffers from a ton of UX and UI (animations, wizards, complicated workflows, error handling that needs to be error handled that needs to be error handled), which often results in very complex state machines.

In both cases, observability is key, especially for debugging purposes. I use the same patterns in both cases: a lot of state machines and event driven design, because I get “debugging” for free (I just need to log state + events and I can reproduce any scenario).

The big advantage of web, and one that I always have to adjust to when I come back from a period of time in embedded, is that you can YOLO a lot. YOLO to prod, you can always easily revert. YOLO the UI, because you can trust the user to refresh their page or workaround it (your hardware peripheral won’t). YOLO everything because you’ll never really brick stuff. YOLO timing because you usually don’t have hard or even squishy-hard realtime requirements. YOLO behaviour because you can have realtime feedback on how your system is doing, and pushing a new version is only minutes away.

But “web dev” done right, and I really like having something fast, robust, repeatable and observable, is quite the challenge too.

[larve]

I realize I mostly focused on the frontend side here, but you can easily see how backend dev is highly complex too (but that often falls under system programming too).

Lots of framework, in fact most of the runtime environment is not under your control at all (cloud services, for example). Complicated deployment and distributed patterns, often requiring many services to collaborate for a single functionality (DB, monitoring, cache, load balancing, backend itself, storage in just the simpler cases!). And none of this is something you can just plug your debugger into and hack away at it. Very similar to embedded in how I approach it.

Deployment is similar too, in that you will often have a builder system that creates artifacts than then get deployed asynchronously, resulting in heterogeneous environments at least for a while, with needs for proper API boundary design.

Seeing the parallels between both worlds allowed me to use CICD, blue/green, feature flags, data pipelines to the cloud, UI patterns from the then nascent javascript framework explosion back in the late aughts, when that stuff was almost unheard of in embedded environments. I scripted my jtag environment using rhino (javascript on the server, back before node came out) to collect and hot reload pieces of code, while being controlled in the browser. I made a firmware app store for midi controllers I was building.

Embedded UIs also highly benefit from knowing patterns from web frontend, because they are highly event based too, and really benefit from attention to detail (say, animations, error handling, quick responsiveness). At any point the user interacts with the device, through a button, a touchscreen, a sensor, UI feedback should be immediate and obvious (even if it’s just a LED turning on). Good web applications are absolutely amazing in how they achieve that (through CSS, through JS, with nice layout / graphical design patterns).

I think it really pays off to do both.

[boredtofears]

It’s good to know this, I think I take for granted the experience I have in web dev. It’s just intimidating to be at the bottom of a large climb in a new discipline.

[avidphantasm]

Harder yes, but at least you don’t have to keep up with “flavor of the month” frameworks and toolkits that frequently change.

[DeathArrow]

I did embedded and now I do backend. I wouldn't say one is harder than other. Things are very different.

[yxhuvud]

Payment is not based on hardness, it is based on demand and supply.

[AndriyKunitsyn]

Not only on hardness, but hardness influences how much of supply of competent workers the market has.

[eulers_secret]

I did Linux kernel work for a decade at my old company. Left due to low pay.

Also worried about my employability. Not much call for C programmers in 2022. You’ll always fear losing your job.

I love low level though, I do embedded projects for fun! I can probably sling back-end Python for 1.5x the salary. I wish embedded payed better, but it doesn’t and therefore I won’t help alleviate this “shortage”.

[tristan957]

If you are ever looking for C opportunities, my team would probably like to be aware of you when the hiring freeze is over. We work on next-generation volatile and non-volatile storage projects including an open-source storage engine.