[Alupis]

It does not need to be libel to be permanently damaging to the public.

The "OK" sign as a symbol of "white power" is a great example - nobody's reputation was tarnished directly by the reporting... but the entire story was made up and never true. Yet, there's folks today that insist it truly is a symbol of "white power".

Libel is also notoriously difficult to establish grounds for, and be successful with a lawsuit. Intent is difficult to prove - yet I would assert a journalist that does not thoroughly vet their story before publishing has a malicious intent, even if it was indirect.

[nemothekid]

>The "OK" sign as a symbol of "white power" is a great example - nobody's reputation was tarnished directly by the reporting... but the entire story was made up and never true. Yet, there's folks today that insist it truly is a symbol of "white power".

This is strange - the OK symbol was definitely co-opted by white nationalists; it started as a "media troll", then people started to do it non-ironically. It served it's purpose and to say it was "never true" is at the very least controversial. I had personally seen it spread on /pol/ months before it got any mainstream coverage.

While I believe the story may have been overblown, I think it stands it would be very difficult to sue a journalist that this was libel or even untrue. At the very least the memes had to have started from somewhere and that posing with the ok symbol wasn't a particularly popular thing to do until after the memes were created.

[Alupis]

It started on 4Chan as a deliberate "watch us make the media go nuts" joke... and it worked.

Today, here you are asserting it actually has an alternate, nefarious meaning. It doesn't, and never did.

It became a meme because of how ridiculous of an idea it was.

I think you're proving my point. Retractions and corrections do not work. Published stories have enormous weight, yet modern journalists don't seem to be aware of, or do not care about, the potential harm they can do. It's just a race to publish first - truth be damned.

[nemothekid]

>It started on 4Chan as a deliberate "watch us make the media go nuts" joke... and it worked.

The disagreement then you and I have is that just because it was an "epic troll" doesn't make it any less serious. To me the fact that it's supposed to be a "joke on the media" is the point - it provides plausible deniability. That's the entire point of using the OK sign; Plausible deniability.

You could go on 4chan and found hundreds of pictures of guys posing with the ok sign, but you'd have to be really naive to think they didn't know what they were doing. A bunch of open white nationalists all adopted the same symbolism at the same time, but I'm supposed to pretend that the symbolism isn't being co-opted?

To be fair, I don't think it was ever the case that Trump or many high ranking officials used the OK symbol as some dogwhistle (Trump has always spoken with his hands), but to pretend it was never true is completely false. May journalists have blown the thing out of proportion? Sure, but that isn't libel and you can't sue someone for mistaking the growth of a trend.

>I think you're proving my point. Retractions and corrections do not work.

I am not someone who came to this conclusion from reading a New York Times article. I've spent a lot of time on 4chan in my teenage years and have kept the site at an arms distance. It was very clear to me what the gesture meant. I remember the threads, and I remember seeing the image the ADL now uses when it was first posted on there. To pretend that 4chan isn't full of white nationalists is bonkers. It's like saying the swatstika never meant anything other than spirituality. Their stated reasons for co-opting the symbol doesn't change the fact they co-opted it.

[Alupis]

Jim says: Some people like to bathe in mayonnaise.

Bob says: It has been reported some people like to bathe in mayonnaise.

Is Bob wrong here? Yes, because Bob didn't verify the information as being factual. Bob might as well have just made it all up himself... it would be no worse. Quite a silly example, but I hope you see the point.

4Chan made up the "OK" symbol story. The media ran with it doing zero research or verification. Then, sometime later people starting meming the symbol because it's laughably absurd.

That does not make it a "co-opted" symbol and does not give it any additional meaning other than literally meaning "OK". It really does not matter if you can find some example of some full fledged level 47 paladin super dragon KKK guy in white robes that made that symbol once because it was funny - it still does not mean "white power" for crying out loud. There is no reality where there is a KKK meeting (or whatever) where they gather around and flash "OK" signs to one another. Real life isn't a corny 70's comedy.

You've been had, very badly, and are really hammering my point deeper and deeper. The media needs to be held accountable for publishing unverified and/or untrue stories because they are extremely damaging to the public.

[belltaco]

What about the white nationalist that killed 49 people in cold blood flashing the symbol in court? Is that funny to you as well? At what point does it become an actual symbol used by white nationalists to signal white nationalism and racism?

[nemothekid]

>It really does not matter if you can find some example of some full fledged level 47 paladin super dragon KKK guy in white robes that made that symbol once because it was funny - it still does not mean "white power" for crying out loud.

You and I just have very different levels of tolerance when it comes to in-group signifiers. You can are carry water for these white nationalists, but the whole "it's just little joke" cover is on purpose. It provides a cover of plausible deniability. Wikipedia has a list of white nationalists using the symbol while shooting up mosques but I assume the bullets were made up by 4chan as well. How many white nationalists have to use the symbol while committing hate crimes before it's no longer media sensation?

>There is no reality where there is a KKK meeting (or whatever) where they gather around and flash "OK" signs to one another. Real life isn't a corny 70's comedy.

I never implied this and you trying to reduce racism to cartoony levels of seriousness that you might see in a film.

[Alupis]

What clothing were they wearing? Perhaps jeans and shoes are racist now too...

[18pfsmt]

People say Twitter is not real life, then you proffer 4chan as real life.

Touch grass, my friend.

I went from pharma research (my degree) to tech to the restaurant world. We use lots of hand gestures because the environment is loud. The hispanic guys I work with give me the bird all the time (kitchen crew), and nobody takes offense.

You want to believe, and that is clear.

[andrew_]

you've been captured by the spin. as a sibling comment points out, it was a joke from the get go, and everyone was is on it except for those who wanted it to be true.

[nradov]

That's a very abstract and subjective concept of damage. What are you proposing exactly?