[blaser-waffle]

> It's only lying if he doesn't believe it.

Whether he believes it or not doesn't mean jack. You are still out several thousand dollars for something that doesn't work.

I bet Liz Holmes really truly thought Theranos products were going to work too.

[modeless]

It clearly means something, both from a legal perspective and a moral perspective.

[arcticbull]

Even if both Elon and Holmes believed they were doing the right thing, that doesn't mean they weren't negligent (broadly that they should have known better) or that they didn't cause material harm to those who relied on their representations. This creates both civil and criminal liabilities. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not sure it does.

[modeless]

I said it means something, not that it absolves them of any responsibility whatsoever. I already said it would make sense to fine Tesla. But the whether they were mistaken or malicious still matters a lot.