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by csa 1328 days ago
(part 2, since first reply was too long)

A few additional notes:

- Note that many people who attend elite schools almost stumble into checking off all of the boxes above without realizing it. It's amazing how some people just randomly do the right things that pave the path to admission into an elite school, while others who try so hard to get into an elite school either do the wrong things (like overly focus on grades and SATs because someone told them to) or have someone else in the process (e.g., a teacher or guidance counselor) fail them.

- Some people think that what happens at elite schools is what makes their graduates so successful. This is true at the margins. Specifically, the access to specific networks of people that control high value parts of the nation and economy is exceptional, and people who avail themselves of this feature of elite schools will see an outsized return on their attendance at an elite school (secret: many/most don't avail themselves). All that said, many of the people who have crazy success after attending an elite school would also have crazy success after attending any school because they and their families are very well connected. Note that state schools also have these sorts of networks, but they are typically limited to the state or regional area in terms of scope.

- IMHO, the at-school opportunities available to a great student at a big state school (something that I think is relatively easy to be) is probably comparable to the opportunities available to a slightly above average student at an elite school (harder to be due to the admission's barrier). The reason is that most state school students are not ambitious and overly curious and extremely talented, so the best students stand out to the professors at state schools while they are relatively common at elite schools. I think the only potential "loss" of going to a state school is if a student would be one of the best both at the state school as well as being the best at an elite school (this bar is almost unbelievably high).

- Most people think that there is discrimination against Asians because they know or have heard of some Asian who got a perfect or near perfect SAT score and a perfect GPA (i.e., the "standard strong" applicant that is a dime a dozen at elite schools) and did not get into Harvard or Stanford or wherever. As I hope the above post has shown, that result is not surprising if their grades and SAT scores are the most compelling part of their application. Harvard's entering class this year is ~25% Asian (most being Asian-American). The threshold Asian folks who didn't get in probably look a lot like the threshold White folks who didn't get in -- they were very solid but didn't stand out or had one or more red flags in their application. As such, the goal is to be a strong admit applicant rather than be a threshold applicant and hope for the best.

- All of the above seems like a lot of work, and I suppose it is. That said, I think that most of it is something that ambitious and motivated people will be doing anyway just because they want to, and the rest is just polishing the edges (e.g., making sure to get good references).

- Lastly, Cal Newport has written some amazing books about "being a superstar" and "standing out without burning out". I recommend giving his books a read.

I hope this helps.

2 comments

> Some people think that what happens at elite schools is what makes their graduates so successful...

Thanks for this comment. I think this is really important. I see so many families make huge sacrifices to try to get their kids into top colleges when they really dont seem like the type of kids to be elite class people. I grew up in a country where this didn't really exist so am a bit baffled by the whole game. I'm happy to take it easy and get a regular college, but worry my kids might miss out on some pot of gold.

> but worry my kids might miss out on some pot of gold

The default assumption should be that if your kids enter an elite school as $SES kids, then they will leave the same (SES = socioeconomic status). So a middle class kid will likely leave Harvard still a middle class kid due to their connections, way of perceiving the world, way of interacting with the world, etc. There usually is no pot of gold.

The dream of social climbing is often more of a rug pull than many middle class people realize since it doesn’t just end with school. Some folks with classic hard-working working class or middle class values will go to an elite school, do well, and then get a top job in IB, consulting, law school/law firm, or whatever, and they think they have made it. But then their career path just flattens after a few years of very grindy work. If the social climber did not make a concerted effort to develop a network of higher class friends (which is not easy if you’re not already in it, imho), then partner or whatever becomes much tougher when job performance is basically based on if they can make it rain or not via their social networks.

There are exceptions, typically in academics, in specializing in a topic or group of people that are foreign to northeast corridor people (e.g., oil people in Texas or car people in Detroit), or in certain organizations (e.g., Goldman was/is known for facilitating social climbing).

An example of one guy I know who made a big jump in SES (sort of)…

He came from a family of educators in small town Michigan, but had a very working class mentality (pro-union, kids did manual labor, etc.). The guy was obsessive about being rich from a young age — the type of guy who actually wrote himself a check for one million dollars dated for his 30th birthday and was hell bent on cashing it.

Long story short, he managed to work his way into a PE firm as a partner in his mid 30s after a decade of decent-but-not-great pay grindy work. His speciality was suppliers to Detroit auto manufactures. Note that he knew nothing about cars and the auto industry at the start, but he knew how to talk to Detroit people without sounding like a NYC shyster.

Made a bunch of money (mid 8 figures), closed down the fund, and retired in his early 40s in the Hamptons.

Note the path though… super grindy, didn’t really make it early, relied on his prior SES, a lot of social climbing, and a bit of luck to set himself apart and make it “big”.

This is not a path I would recommend to my kids unless they are hellbent on taking it like the example above.

The experiences I see of those who tried to social climb is that a lot of them hit mid-life and wondered where their high-trajectory career went. That “high-trajectory” was a class-based illusion, imho, and they didn’t do what it would take to make that illusion become real.

Apologies if this sounds overly cynical, but I think it’s important to debunk some of the myths about what makes the elite schools seem so impressive.

To end on a more positive note, I will say that elite schools often help folks reach the top end of their SES range, especially for upper middle class folks. So kids who come from families with wealth in the 10m range might end up with wealth in the 50m range, with a few making a bigger jump to lower upper class. This may seem like a big jump, but it is not functionally since that level of extra money largely just buys QoL improvements rather than access life changing levers.

There was a guy on HN who wrote a really good social class guide and what affordances each class gave you. I will try to find it and link it here later.

Here is a link:

https://indiepf.com/michael-o-churchs-theory-of-3-class-ladd...

Michael O’Church had the original idea. I can’t quickly find a link to his original article in the internet archive (way back machine), but I think it’s still there.

I just got around to checking my HN replies. Thank you so much for writing this out. I'm at least a decade+ from having to put these plans into motion, but I'll refer back to it from time to time.