[kossTKR]

Is there any legit reason Apple is hastening the drop of support for older computers when they can be upgraded just fine with the OpenCore Legacy Patcher?

It seems wrong to me in an age of excessive e-waste that seemingly arbitrary thresholds is set that has zero hardware links.

I generally really like Apple, and is planning on retiring my 2014 Macbook Pro for an M2, but it's still working absolutely great. But i could only upgrade to Monterey with the legacy patcher like many others, seemingly problem free.

It's the same thing with older iPads, i wanted to use one as a "hub" for homekit, but you can't because it can't update ios beyond 9 (regular browsing + video + 99% of apps is also broken), so people just throw it in the dumpster with a great battery, a fine screen and a processor that could easily be used as a server, video player, browser etc.

I know other companies are often worse but we really need legislation around this; something ala if the biggest players drop support for some hardware let the user upgrade anyway even if performance will be worse, otherwise release all drivers so that you can at least install linux or alternatively release some "trimmed down versions" of the OS for legacy systems that can still run basic functionality.

[ChildOfChaos]

Yeah, I am a little disappointed that this is the first upgrade that I cannot get with my late 2015 iMac. I'd use the legacy patcher perhaps, but I don't see much on this new version that I would want, so i'd rather keep things offical for now, to avoid any issues.

Yes, I get that this machine is 7 years old, but I cannot tell from using it, everything is extremely fast, I upspecced it when I bought it and maxed out a lot of things, it has a decent i7 processor, 32gb of ram and 1tb ssd and the m395x maxed out graphics card, heck it still games well in Windows.

I really see zero reason to upgrade, it runs better than my new work windows laptop except that Apple have decided for some reason I can't get the update.

[ergonaught]

I had every desire and intention of upgrading my desktop (late 2015 iMac) to the newer hardware, right up until they decided this hardware is somehow incompatible with the newest MacOS.

They've basically just ended 20 years of Mac for me.

Pity.

[midislack]

I hit the same issue back in the 10.4 > 10.5 upgrade days, my computer's OX911 Firewire controller chip just became unstable. No official acknowledgment from Apple, thousands of angry Apple Discussions posts.

[dv_dt]

I wonder how well linux runs on the range of phased out macs

[0rzech]

MBP 2015 with Fedora 36 Silverblue:

* Camera didn't work.

* Sound coming out from built-in speakers was flat.

* Broadcom Wi-Fi didn't work out of the box.

Didn't spot any other issues during tests.

[crazygringo]

Of course, because the more older models you support that don't have the hardware needed for your new features, the more programming you have to do to enable/disable those features in different configurations, the more testing, and the more bugs. It becomes impossible to maintain. At some point you have to draw a line and let go, in order to delete the legacy code holding you back.

But please don't throw your iPad in the dumpster! I don't know why you're saying it could be easily used as a video or browser -- it still can! Tons of people use old iPads running old versions of iOS specifically as video players. They're perfect for that! Don't put it in the dumpster, sell it on eBay or give it to a friend's kid or something.

[kossTKR]

No you can't use it for video and browsing.

You can't play video on it because Youtube/Netflix/Hbo + all other video apps don't work anymore on IOS9.

You can't browse the web because certificates don't work anymore in the browser.

I don't know why you guys are attacking me for proposing legislation and retiring my old iPad - i'm a techy with a 2014 macbook pro that has really tried finding a usecase for his my old 2. gen iPad lol, i use stuff for as long as possible.

Most regular non tech people won't be able to stretch their laptops life as long as i did, that's the problem.

[crazygringo]

Sell it on eBay. The 2nd gen used iPads sell for $20-40 [1], so obviously people are still buying and using them for something. I know some people who use them as wall-mounted always-on live weather/news/commute displays, just pointing to an HTML page.

[1] https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=ipad+2nd+gene...

[plorkyeran]

Ventura removes all the fallbacks for pre-Haswell CPUs and it now just assumes that AVX2 is available. Even if you can persuade it to boot on older CPUs I'd be pretty surprised if it actually works "just fine".

[elcomet]

> so it has to go in the dumpster with a great battery, a fine screen and a processor that could easily be used as a server, video player, browser etc.

Why would it have to go in the dumpster if it still works well? This reasoning is why we have exessive e-waste, not the lack of upgrades...

[kossTKR]

It works well only in theory. Almost no apps works on ios9 anymore, so you can't run netflix, hbo, even browsers are useless because certificates aren't updated - that's why i wanted to just use it as a homekit server, but you can't do this either.

ie, the processor is just fine for doing all of the above, but slowly all functionality has been lost.

[0xabe]

Right, the argument is that the hardware is still functional, but due to the walled garden nature of the ecosystem, it can no longer be used. They are more like appliances and less like general purpose computing devices.

[roody15]

This has been Apple's vision for quite sometime. They want to control the full lifecycle of their devices. Yes they are exactly more like "consoles" or "appliances" and less like full personal computers.

[dividedbyzero]

I have a pretty old iPad as well and it simply can't do anything I need anymore. Tons of apps won't install by now, it's insecure since it hasn't received any patches in quite a few years, what would I use it for? I'd like to use it as a Spotify Connect target, but no recent Spotify will install on it. Can't use it as a server for obvious reasons. Can't use it as a Home hub. Can't use it for web browsing, or as a smart home control panel... and I don't know anyone who would have a use for it. It's essentially a very smart paperweight.

[fl0id]

Because you won't get security updates after 2 years or so.

[alwillis]

Apple released a security update for iOS 12 a couple of months ago for devices going back to 2013’s iPhone 5s [1].

[1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213428

[FireBeyond]

Great. What portion of apps would you say still run on iOS 12? Because most of the top 10... don't.

[alwillis]

Sure they do; just not the most current versions.

The App Store only sends versions you can actually run.

[l72]

This isn't completely true. The App Store will only let you download previous versions of software you have already installed. If you try to download a new App and the latest version does not support your version of iOS, the App Store will NOT download the latest compatible version, it will just fail!

I have a side business, and a few weeks ago I decided to do a pop-up and needed a device to take payments on. I pulled out my older ipad, reset it, and decided to create a new apple account for my business. But, because this was a new apple account and the ipad was still running iOS 12, I was unable to download anything useful from the App Store. I had to find a new device, reset it, log in with my new account, download the latest version of the Apps I needed, reset it again, and relog in with my personal account. THEN, on my ipad, I was able to download the latest compatible versions of those apps.

I went through all that, only to open the Shopify App and immediately be told I had to update to the latest version, which of course, my ipad didn't support. So, yeah, I have this hardware that still works great, but for all practical purposes is e-waste.

I would love to be able to put Linux on this and use it for some hobby projects.

[FireBeyond]

Sure. And "Please upgrade your version of Netflix|Hulu|Spotify|YouTube in order to connect."?

I'm sure that will be considered the app developer's fault, because -they- are expected to handle backwards compatibility, since Apple won't.

[pwinnski]

If something goes wrong with your machine and you've used OpenCore Legacy Patcher, then oh well, something has gone wrong. If something goes wrong with your machine and you've used the official update channel, then Apple has screwed over older machines on purpose and you can join a class-action lawsuit claiming that.

The security footprint of machines running Ventura using OpenCore Legacy Patcher is going to be much smaller than that of machines officially updated, too.

[sys_64738]

What are you actually trying to say?

[pwinnski]

The question was:

> Is there any legit reason Apple is hastening the drop of support for older computers when they can be upgraded just fine with the OpenCore Legacy Patcher?

I gave multiple reasons.

[pohl]

Seems like maybe a bigger cause of e-waste might be the mindset that a device immediately needs to go in a dumpster the day after some OS upgrade comes out that won't run on it.

[slifin]

As a software developer

I don't recommend my friends or family put important information or sign in to any device that is running unmaintained OS software

Because I assume they're exploitable from a security point of view after that point

Of course no one follows that advice but what are we supposed to do?

[SllX]

Apple also isn’t dropping support for older operating systems the second a new one hits the CDNs.

A Mac on the latest OS that it can run can still expect at least two to three years of additional security updates, so if yesterday was the end of the line for your Mac and you want to use it for a couple of more years, feel free. You won’t get Stage Manager, but from the reviews I’ve read, you’re not missing much.

[pwinnski]

2016 Macs are not "unmaintained" yet. They should receive security updates for at least two more years, which will make them eight years old at that point.

[hbn]

They're pretty good for keeping "unsupported" devices up to date with security patches.

My iPad mini 2 from 2013 just got a security patch a few weeks ago even though it's stuck on iOS 12.

[1123581321]

Put ChromeOS Flex on it. It’s a flavor of ChromeOS/Neverware meant for old PCs and Macs that can’t keep up with Windows and macOS. https://chromeenterprise.google/os/chromeosflex/

[lupire]

I want a Mac. I don't want a Mac and a Chromebook. But maybe someone else would use my old Mac as a Chromebook. Except there are zillions of cheap Chromebooks around already.

[1123581321]

In that case, you have either the opencore/hackintosh route or you can simply run on the last compatible OS.

There is a market for nicer-feeling Chromebooks, so ChromeOS Flex is a partial remedy for e-waste.

[TwoNineA]

> Is there any legit reason Apple is hastening the drop of support for older computers when they can be upgraded just fine with the OpenCore Legacy Patcher?

How do regular OS patches work with OpenCore Legacy Patcher? Do you have to go hoops to update OS for security / feature updates once you set it up?

[kcplate]

> I know other companies are often worse but we really need legislation around this

The last thing we need is some crappy poorly written law that is filled with a bunch of unrelated hanger-on pork projects to appease politicians into voting for it.

[rakoo]

> Is there any legit reason Apple is hastening the drop of support for older computers when they can be upgraded just fine with the OpenCore Legacy Patcher?

Apart from selling more hardware, which is their one and only goal ?

[joshka]

>Apart from selling more hardware, which is their one and only goal ?

This is probably better stated as two goals: lower costs, higher sales (profit = sales - costs). Dropping support increases the costs line in effect as it's a consumer happiness. But it also decreases it by reducing the support cost (multiple logic paths to support / more code / more bugs etc.)

[JohnBooty]

It's frustrating because I think a lot of people stuck with their 2015 MBPs since it was the last one with a "good" keyboard and solid assortment of ports for quite a while.

[synicalx]

Every generation of hardware they support, is another generation they have to test and QA their new stuff on. And then if they're pushing software updates for it that creates the expectation that the Apple Stores will be supporting these old devices as well.

[gw99]

I think they're mostly trying to kill off the old Intel Macs now. And any ARM devices that don't have Neural Engine.

I expect the more modern Apple Silicon based ARM devices to have a longer support lifespan than older Macs.

[FireBeyond]

Yup. I fear for my 2019 Mac Pro. Five digits of investment, and out of curiosity, I saw that Apple had reduced its trade-in "value" from $3,700 a few months ago to $1,100 now. Rather insulting, since they're still selling the same Mac Pro, and charging $3,000 for the RAM that's in this one alone.

[bpye]

I wonder if that is true. I hope so as I have a first gen M1 MacBook Pro and honestly it’s the best laptop I’ve ever had. I do wonder if either we’re going to see the ARM MacBooks have about the same lifetime as iPhones, or if iPhones will end up being supported for longer since they are architecturally very similar.

[0rzech]

I suppose it all revolves around money.

[teilo]

Yes. Security. Limiting Ventura to machines with the T2 means substantially more secure hardware.

[dainiusse]

I explain it simply - they will haste to ger rid of all Intel laptops and don't have to maintain x86 version of macOS. That is them becoming evil.

[runjake]

Evil is subjective.

1. Apple has been doing this for years and years. At this point, it shouldn't be a surprise.

2. It reduces legacy cruft. The alternative is you get to keep 20-30 year old legacy cruft, as with Windows. I'm not saying what Microsoft does is necessarily bad, just different.

3. The Intel laptops don't stop running[a] -- and if history is any indication, will still receive critical security patches.

4. At least the bonus here is that the lowest end Apple Silicon Mac almost entirely crushes the high end i9 MBP 16" it replaced -- for a fraction of the cost.

a. Unless it gets hit by one of a number of known quality issues (screen, keyboard, battery, etc).

[simplotek]

> It reduces legacy cruft.

What you chose to describe as "legacy cruft" is actually the luxury laptop people spent over $2K close 6 or 7 years ago.

> The alternative is you get to keep 20-30 year old legacy cruft, as with Windows.

It's not a choice between bricking perfectly good computers after 6 years or maintaining them for 30 years.

[runjake]

Apple is bricking perfectly good computers? As far as I know, they keep running with the last supported version of macOS.

And heck, Windows 11 doesn't really support pre-Coffee Lake CPUs without hacks similar to OpenCore's.

[simplotek]

> As far as I know, they keep running with the last supported version of macOS.

During the past 3 years I was forced to upgrade from Mojave to Big Sur to Monterrey, each and every single time because otherwise my 2019 MacBook pro would not be allowed in the network as it was running unsupported OSes.

No, they do not keep running with the last supported version. Having a successful boot sequence and seeing blinking lights is not the end goal of spending over $2k on a luxury computer.

[conductr]

They did that when they moved to Intel also. They always have a hardware philosophy and push the market towards it. You see this in chips, cables, audio jacks, etc. It's just Apple being Apple.

[clem]

This is why my next laptop is going to be a Framework running Linux.

[alwillis]

don't have to maintain x86 version of macOS.

Actually there isn’t an x86 version of the current macOS; it’s a single operating system that runs on multiple processor architectures. During the PowerPC to Intel transition back in the day, I could boot a PowerPC or Intel Mac from the same hard drive.

The same is true today with Intel and ARM-based Macs.

I have a 2017 Intel iMac running macOS Ventura but there’s plenty of ARM code on it. Here’s the output from running the file command on ls:

    /bin/ls: Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures: [x86_64:Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64 [arm64e:Mach-O 64-bit executable arm64e]
    /bin/ls (for architecture x86_64):      Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64
    /bin/ls (for architecture arm64e):      Mach-O 64-bit executable arm64e

Apple is still selling the Mac Pro [1], which is Intel based. And there are plenty of Intel Macs for sale on Apple’s refurb store [2].

I suspect these machines will be supported for the foreseeable future.

BTW, my 2017 iMac is running its 7th major operating system:

- macOS 10.12 Sierra

- macOS 10.13 High Sierra

- macOS 10.14 Mojave

- macOS 10.15 Catalina

- macOS 11 Big Sur

- macOS 13 Monterey

- macOS 14 Ventura

I think Apple will support Intel Macs for a good while. They’re not going to get all of the same features as ARM-based Macs (due to these machines having Apple’s custom silicon the Intel Macs don’t have) but they will get the same core features for the foreseeable future.

[1]: https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/

[2]: https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished/mac/2019

[hbn]

> Apple is still selling the Mac Pro [1], which is Intel based.

I wouldn't take that as any kind of promise it's gonna be maintained by them for an acceptable amount of time.

Up until last month when they announced the new Apple Watch SE, their entry-level watch was the Series 3 which you could still purchase even though it didn't get updated to watchOS 9. Sometimes they just continue to offer a product because some people might still buy it.

[alwillis]

Yeah, still selling the Apple Watch Series 3 wasn’t a good look for Apple, no doubt.

But it’s one thing to sell a $249 watch that won’t get the latest operating system update versus a $6000 Mac Pro. Those customers would be super unhappy if the next operating system doesn’t run on it.

[bpye]

I wonder about that too… Xcode Cloud runs on Intel server hardware [0] - is Apple going to want to build their own ARM server platform or will they just keep x86 alive enough for their internal server workloads?

[0] - https://twitter.com/khaost/status/1410332951963869185

[pwinnski]

It is not enough to explain it simply, one should also explain it accurately.

They are still supporting Intel chips from the Haswell generation and later, although as plorkyeran points out, they can now assume AVX2 chip instructions are available, which simplifies things for them.

[whywhywhywhy]

> excessive e-waste

We're talking about the company that makes AirPods and forces Lightning Cables to exist. Half their product line is e-waste.

[duped]

Lightning has been around longer than USB-C and they've changed their charging port once in 20 years. That's a better history than every other mobile device manufacturer. Their most recent cable is a bridge between the eventual USB-C transition without obsoleting everyone's existing peripherals and cables.

[zdragnar]

It is also a proprietary connector, which contributes to waste by virtue of not being able to reuse cables from other devices.

I can understand that they didn't want to have customers upset that a dodgy third party cable fried their expensive Apple equipment, but the transition to USB-C can't come soon enough IMHO.

[danaris]

It is a proprietary connector developed at a time when proprietary connectors were still common, and the non-proprietary options (mini-USB and micro-USB) were much lower bandwidth, much more fragile, and still had the issue of "which way up do I plug it in??"

This meme that Apple loves to create bags and bags of arbitrary proprietary cables needs to just die. It's 100% FUD.

[zdragnar]

I'm not saying that there weren't non-proprietary connectors, or that mini usb was better.

I'm saying that USB-C is better, and has been the better option for quite some time.

[duped]

I don't have this problem, all my devices have had lightning connectors for years. I don't plan or want to leave the ecosystem and my cables have lasted quite some time.

Conversion to USB-C will cause me to throw away all my cables.

[smoldesu]

USB-C cables are an investment in the future. Apple helped design the USB-C (and associated Thunderbolt spec) and knew that they would inevitably be forced to switch to USB-C. The iPad came first (to make it "Pro"), but the writing has been on the wall since Macbooks started charging over USB-C. There were legitimately no benefits to using Lightning besides the licensing fees that they charged when people made Lightning-based peripherals.

Maybe for you, Lightning cables don't seem like such a bad investment. To me, it's an source of imminent E-waste. The Lightning port on my Magic Trackpad 2 is the only thing that makes it feel dated, and unfortunately the feature that will eventually make it unusable. There is literally zero reason this accessory should have shipped with the port.

[SllX]

There’s always new cable standards. Even if 100% of Apple’s products that currently use lightning switched to USB-C tomorrow, I expect I’ll still be using lightning cables for the next 5 years just on devices I already own; and further into the future at some point even after everything I have is on USB-C there will be some cable standard to replace that too.

It’s not like lightning is some obscure connection: there’s a good distribution of stuff out there using either Lightning, USB-C or even microUSB and this is still better than the mix of connector types that used to be more prevalent. USB-C is fine, but there’s nothing to evangelize and it’s not going to decrease the amount of cables in use at any given time, nor stave off cable replacements. It might reduce the amount of cables you travel with by 1, maybe.

[whywhywhywhy]

yet you threw away your 30-pin iPod cables....