[throwamon]

> they should care about [...]

And there's your problem. Regular users do not give a rat's ass about your shoulds. In addition, for example, I've never seen any serious UX bugs in Telegram, and I've seen many in Element. Regular users care waaay more about that than some vague notion of "reliability".

[rglullis]

> your shoulds

They are not mine.

It's not my data that is being mined and it's not my business that can disappear if WhatsApp goes offline.

Yeah, I'm fully aware that people generally don't care about any of that. Lots of people also don't care about their eating habits, the effects of their economic actions, etc, etc. But if they don't want to face the bad consequences of their choices, they should.

[TheOtherHobbes]

Just as FOSS should produce high quality, usable, popular, free software.

But it doesn't.

Your shoulds look an awful lot like a tribal affectation which the FOSS community uses to exclude non-technical users.

It doesn't matter if the exclusion is conscious (I suspect it isn't) or deliberate (likewise.)

The point is the exclusion happens. Self-evidently and empirically. Outside of the technical community FOSS might as well not exist.

If you actually want people to use FOSS you need to stop shoulding potential users and start making software that satisfies their needs in obvious and delightful ways.

Security and privacy are important but secondary features.

And access to source code trails at the end of the list. It's of zero interest - and even less use - to non-technical users.

[rglullis]

> which the FOSS community uses to exclude non-technical users.

Sorry, that is bullshit. Any FOSS enthusiast will gladly help other people, when there is a clear path to make the change. When I told my friends and family "I am not going to use WhatsApp anymore, but there is this program that we use instead", I went to help all of them that were interested. I didn't force them to choose between Element or WhatsApp, I just said "here is one alternative."

> Just as FOSS should produce high quality, usable, popular, free software.

I can bet FOSS beats proprietary solutions on any class on a dollar-per-unit-of-quality and even dollar-per-user-acquired metric.

> If you actually want people to use FOSS you need to stop shoulding potential users and start making software that satisfies their needs in obvious and delightful ways.

Everyone wants an unicorn. No one wants to pay for it. If we want developers to work on FOSS projects, we need to foment a marketplace that rewards FOSS developers.

"Oh, but I don't care about FOSS. I care about getting things done, or less inconveniences, etc"

Fine, then enjoy your shit sandwich that is called "Big Tech".

[white_dragon88]

Therefore the idea will continue to flounder indefinitely, used by a microscopically small user base representing a microscopically small niche of the market. In effect it doesn’t exist and has negligible impact on the bigger picture. But at least you get to feel like you did the right thing, right?

[rglullis]

> Therefore the idea will continue to flounder indefinitely, used by a microscopically small user base.

I have no control over what others do. The only power I have is over my own choices.

> But at least you get to feel like you did the right thing, right?

I am more concerned about not doing the wrong thing (if I can avoid it) then any display of righteousness.

In the case, no one is forcing me to use WhatsApp, so if I can avoid being a participant in something that I believe to be hurtful to me and others, I will. The inconvenience is a small price to pay.