[mcv]

I'm still disappointed every time I try to order something at a webshop and they don't support iDeal[0]. That's how online payment should work. Of course it's only a Dutch system, so it's not going to be supported by all international webshops (although Steam does), but if anyone has the scope to introduce a more secure form of online payment, surely it's Visa and MasterCard? Why don't they introduce an iDeal-like payment protocol that the whole world can use? Why do I still have to type those 16 numbers into a web form, when the banking app on my phone already knows what those numbers are? Why does anyone else need to know those numbers, and why are those numbers enough to authorise payment?

Everything is wrong with that system, and yet credit card companies don't seem to have sufficient incentive to fix it. And yet they have too much power outside Netherland for anyone to introduce a better alternative.

[0] Lego! Why do you not support iDeal? If Steam can do it, so can you.

[lotsofpulp]

Why should I care about credit card security? I have zero liability, and in 17 years of using them, I maybe had to ask the bank to issue a new credit card number once, and that would have been many years ago.

I am sure tons of doctors' offices, hotels, online businesses, daycares, etc have my hand written card number and CVC code or whatever laying around, but even if someone did use it fraudulently, I would just click the dispute button on the transaction and I assume I would not hear about it again.

[mcv]

It still costs money. Transactions cost more because of the insurance. And it's still bizarrely insecure. Credit card numbers get leaked all the time, even if you personally haven't experienced it. Not to mention that it's inconvenient having to type in all those numbers. Security can actually make things more convenient in this case.

When I buy something, I just have to scan the QR code with my banking app and authorise the payment, and that's it.

[yurishimo]

I've recently moved to NL from the USA; iDeal is great! I won't go into the excruciating slog of work that was required to open a Dutch bank account as a US Citizen, but now that I have an account, it's awesome!

Account transfers are much faster as well, which is true for most (all?) SEPA countries. I know the US is actively working on a faster/cheaper transfer system but realistically that is still 5+ years away for most consumers.

[culturestate]

> I won't go into the excruciating slog of work that was required to open a Dutch bank account as a US Citizen

I keep hearing about these horror stories but I've only actually experienced it once, years ago in mainland China.

I (also a US citizen) moved back to Europe this summer and opened accounts in both DE and NL; I only had to provide my passport, SSN, and proof of address and I was good to go.

Am I just preternaturally lucky, or what?

[yurishimo]

I think it was a few things. First, I’m not in the Randstad, but in Brabant. I don’t work for ASML or Philips so the company that hired me was not familiar with many of the resources available to expats.

Second, I dutifully listened to the employees who tried to tell me to sign up via the various apps. I went in person to the ABN bank building in Eindhoven where a lady at the front gave me a business card to call a phone number with a disconnected line to attempt to open an account.

Third, I listened to the Reddit when they said Bunq had severely declined in quality and just coming off of Simple in the USA, I was hesitant to join a neobank in a new country with no physical presence should I have a problem that needed to be solved immediately.

Finally, I was not totally aware of FACTA and what that meant for me as a customer. I eventually created an account at the Regiobank in my small village, but I didn’t know about the requirements so my account was delayed for use for two weeks while they manually updated my details.

Consequently, after the shitshow at ABN, I walked down the street to ING and was able to make an appointment for the next day. However, because INGs entire sign up is app driven now, I was left without a login because I signed up in person due to the FACTA requirement. I’ve requested the login to be reset and mailed to me twice (an option they offer, I assume for old folks) and I still can’t access my account online or in the app. I opened the account in mid-September.

So yeah, some of it was my fault, but as far as ING and ABN are concerned, it’s pure incompetence.

[zinekeller]

> Am I just preternaturally lucky, or what?

Did you chose a bank that has an international footprint (and would be forced to comply to FATCA sooner or later)? I'm not shocked about it. It is indeed true if you want to use a more local bank though. I heard that most neobanks in Asia (which tend to have higher interest rates) forbid US persons (as defined in FATCA) because they're focused on locals and don't want the overhead of FATCA compliance.

[culturestate]

> Did you chose a bank that has an international footprint (and would be forced to comply to FATCA sooner or later)?

Yes and no. Neobanks weren't a thing when I was getting settled in Asia (I think Simple launched in the US ~two years after I landed), but I use Bunq - which, as far as I know, has no US operations - in NL and my local Sparkasse in DE.

[mcv]

Are you from the US? I do know banks have special rules for US Persons, but I have no idea what kind of impact those rules have on opening a bank account.

[culturestate]

> Are you from the US?

Yes. Most people seem to blame FATCA, but while it's a pain in the ass for me personally, no bank I've ever used has blinked at it. They just ask for my SSN and a declaration of tax residency and move on.

[r_hoods_ghost]

It's worth noting that this isn't neccesarily how credit card disputes work in other countries. If I want to dispute a charge in the UK I have to first dispute it with the merchant, then if they refuse to give a refund dowload a 10 page .pdf form from my bank, fill it out, print it and sign it (digital signatures will be rejected) give copious evidence that I am not to blame, and then send it off. After a few weeks and probably at least one or two follow up calls I might get a refund. Other countries may have better or worse systems and credit card companies (and banks) are interested in the global market, not just the USA.

[amelius]

It takes time and effort to figure out if someone has robbed you.

And sometimes it may go unnoticed for a while, and it happened to me at least once.

[lotsofpulp]

I thought of that, but with push/text notifications and easy to browse back websites, it is not really costly in terms of time or effort.

[amelius]

And what about the inconvenience of not having access to your money until the dispute is resolved?

[lotsofpulp]

With a credit card, it is not your money, it is the banks’ money.

[amelius]

Yeah, but your card has a limit.

[ahopebailie]

This is pretty much the exact distinction between the US attitude to cards and the rest of the world. In the US, the ability to dispute a card tx is just part of life.

Everywhere else the banks have forced poor UX onto merchants in the name of shifting liability and improved security.

This is why the US rolled out chip cards with a signature while everyone else has been using chip and PIN for years.

[psychlops]

When losses are socialized, fraud is someone else's problem.

[lotsofpulp]

Yes, which is a big reason to use credit cards.

[maest]

You're still paying for the cost of fraud, so it's not really someone else's problem.

[lotsofpulp]

If I do not have a choice to pay a lower price without fraud protection, then it makes no difference.

If the merchant charges extra for credit card purchases, then it becomes something to consider.

[psychlops]

In the netherlands, you can use iDEAL for a lower price.

[rchaud]

Until annual card-related expenses reach the equivalent of paying someone to personally guard your money, it's immaterial.

[dr_dshiv]

I love iDeal! It is one reason why the Amazon Monopoly has less hold in countries like the Netherlands. Online payment is such a breeze!

[mcv]

It's true, I haven't bought from Amazon in years. Usually bol.com is my first stop for that kind of stuff. But if it's really a lack of iDeal support that's holding Amazon back, why don't they just support iDeal?

I doubt iDeal is much harder to support than other payment systems, so the only reason not to support it is because they don't really consider Netherland an important market. I don't care about Amazon ignoring us, but I'm a bit disappointed about Lego.

[brnt]

And you know, good old bank transfers worked perfect decades before that too. Still do in fact. Even Europeans from certain (Eurozone) countries seem wary to use it, while typing in am IBAN is really not anymore work than typing a credit card number.

[Tijdreiziger]

Amazon.nl does support iDEAL

[dr_dshiv]

To be clear: when I have to input cc info, I’m less likely to use an e-commerce site. IDeal makes me more likely to use other websites bc it isn’t so hard to pay. That’s why it breaks Amazon inertia.

[Tijdreiziger]

In the Dutch e-commerce context, that’s less like breaking Amazon inertia and more like breaking Bol.com inertia.

Either way, we never had credit cards in the Netherlands (they exist, but aren’t popular). The predecessor to iDEAL was the paper ‘acceptgiro’ [1]. The big difference there is that that was a postpaid scheme (you’d receive the acceptgiro along with your goods, fill and sign it, and send it to your bank to be processed).

[1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptgiro

[soco]

The Netherlands have iDeal, India has UPI, Brazil has Pix, Switzerland has Twint, there are quite some solutions for easy and simple payments floating around. Next step is to figure out how to integrate all these for international payments.

[Ayesh]

Yeah, we had an overwhelming majority of Dutch users using iDEAL to a point that we didn't see any decrease in sales when we had our credit card payment gateway down.

I believe you need to sign up with a Dutch acquirer/CPSP to get iDEAL payments sorted out, so there is an entry barrier for many international shops to accept iDEAL payments. This is pretty much the same for other payment providers such as CB, UPI, LankaQR, even AliPay too, so that effort is probably worth it.

[themoonisachees]

Unlike iDEAL, dealing with CB gets you nothing now. I haven't seen a CB card that wasn't also a visa card in 20 years, so if your payment system accepts visa you don't have to deal with them

[WirelessGigabit]

No. iDeal sucks. No insurance. Go read on some Dutch websites where they discuss online purchase issues. First question they ask: paid with credit card? Open dispute. Paid with iDeal: much harder as they have your money. If they’re not associated with some kind of governing body your only recourse is a lawyer.

I’ll pay the credit card transaction fees. Peace of mind.

[WirelessGigabit]

Downvoters: prove me wrong… what’s your recourse when the shop refuses to corporate?

[nottorp]

You may want to mention that no small store accepts visa/mc in NL :)

Apparently because the commission is sky high. In other parts of the EU that's been regulated and I can buy as low as two apples with a credit card.

If you're a tourist in NL, bring cash.

[bluedino]

Why don't they just advertise a minimum purchase or fee for using a card? You're not supposed to do it but it seems like every small party store/gas station in the US does so.

[Acinyx]

Because all the natives pay using Debit cards, so it is only foreign visitors that have this problem, and stores in the really touristy parts do support credit cards.

I am pretty sure that contactless payments around here do all support credit cards btw as AFAIK that's how Apple Pay and Google Wallet work, but I haven't tried it much.

[wink]

Did this change recently? I had no problem paying with my German Maestro/EC for everything a couple of years ago. (Just like in most European countries, really)

[nottorp]

Maestro is a different animal. I only have Visa/MC and I had to carry cash. Two examples were a random restaurant in a mall and a random tiny cigarette shop. At the latter they told me Visa can cost like 10%.

[mcv]

As far as I know, Maestro is (part of? compatible with?) the normal bank card standard that's supported everywhere.

[mcv]

I only have my credit card for online purchases, and only for webshops that don't support iDeal. There's little to no domestic credit card use here.