[PaulDavisThe1st]

There's an even bigger (or at least, more on-point) problem with the audience though.

In the pre-DAW days, "audio engineering" was a specific task and skill set that was quite distinct from "playing music". Many DAWs were created to assist with audio engineering, assuming usage by someone who understands that domain.

Fast forward to recent times, and there's some widespread belief that a DAW should be a tool for musicians, even for musicians who don't know anything (or at least, not much) about audio engineering. "I just want to record my ideas".

So then someone cooks up some relatively simple DAW-like application for such people. They start using it, and within a few weeks or months, they find themselves unavoidably learning something about audio engineering. They want more from the application, and within a relatively short period of time, they need and/or want the full DAW.

The same thing is happening, to a lesser degree in the podcasting/radio production world.

[bryans]

Every audio engineer is also a musician. Every DAW has been developed by audio and software engineers who are also musicians[1]. Every professional musician understands the basic concepts of audio production. DAW UIs mimic the interfaces of real world devices, of which all musicians interact with on a regular basis.

Suggesting that musicians weren't meant to (and shouldn't even be allowed to) use DAWs is beyond nonsensical. This holier-than-thou argument you're trying to make is baseless.

[1] https://twitter.com/JustinFrankel/status/1582430125941198848

[PaulDavisThe1st]

> Every audio engineer is also a musician.

Absolutely untrue. Since you used the word "every", I only need one example to disprove this. Geoff Emerick, the engineer for the Beatles "late" albumns, was not a musician. I could name dozens more, spread across decades. Susan Rogers, Prince's audio engineer: not a musician. Chris Lord-Alge ... not a musician. This is just so wrong.

> Every professional musician understands the basic concepts of audio production.

I know hundreds of professional musicians. Most of them know almost nothing about audio engineering other than a few buzzwords.

DAWs used to mimic mixing consoles, but increasingly do not (because their functionality has expanded into new realms not touched by mixing consoles). Plugins used to mimic hardware units, but increasingly do not (because (a) skeuomorphism comes and goes as a fashion statement (b) they do things never implemented in hardware).

Very, very few classical musicians interact with an EQ or reverb unit on a regular basis. Very few drummers ever use stomp boxes or EQ. Very few singers have any knowledge about mic or preamp technology.

Then there's this little chestnut:

> Every DAW has been developed by audio and software engineers who are also musicians

You don't appear to be aware of the fact that I am a DAW developer, and over the last 22+ years of being in the field have gotten to know (a little) the other people that you refer to. You're just wrong about this. Sure, most of the companies have audio engineers and musicians on staff, but most of the actual coders are not musicians.

Justin is probably one of the exceptions to the rule, although even he concedes that (a) he isn't a very good musician (b) he doesn't know that much about audio engineering. You can hear him say this on the 2.5 chat we had at http://adc.equalarea.com/2022/02/07/adc1/

I have no idea what I said that made you believe I was suggesting that musicians should not use DAWs. My point was that it is very difficult to design tools that work well for both musicians and audio engineers (unless they happen to be the same person), and that when you design one that works well for musicians, there's a tendency for it experience pressure to be more "engineer-y".

[bryans]

This is really all that needs to be quoted to show what nonsense you're trying to pull:

> there's some widespread belief that a DAW should be a tool for musicians [...] I have no idea what I said that made you believe I was suggesting that musicians should not use DAWs.

And the rest of your comment is more holier-than-thou nonsense, mostly baseless and not accurate to any reality that I've ever heard of, much less experienced.

> DAWs used to mimic mixing consoles, but increasingly do not

Except all of the buttons and faders and everything else still look the same. You're completely making things up, and even your made up things don't prove your point. No other DAW developer or audio engineer in the world would back up your claim that DAWs aren't meant to be used by musicians.

> I know hundreds of professional musicians. Most of them know almost nothing about audio engineering other than a few buzzwords.

I've met thousands of musicians in my life, and 90%+ of them understand the basics of audio production. The musicians you know can't be very professional if they haven't ever encountered a situation where they learned anything about audio.

> You don't appear to be aware of the fact that I am a DAW developer

Because apparently my work in the field is irrelevant and I couldn't possibly know anything, right? Every company developing DAWs is primarily engineered by musicians. Just because other non-musical engineers get involved, doesn't make my statement any less factual. There are other aspects to software development (even in DAWs) that don't have anything to do with audio. As "someone in the field," you should know that.

[Slow_Hand]

Hi. Musician/producer/audio engineer here.

I've re-read Paul's initial post three times now and I'm still not seeing how you're interpreting the message of his post as "DAWs aren't mean to be used by musicians".

All he's said is that introductory products in the domain like Garageband (or perhaps Ableton's new app) initially start out as stepping stones for musicians who don't have an interest in the engineering aspect of things and that as the musician gets drawn into the discipline of audio engineering those apps become insufficient for their needs and they end up being drawn into full-featured DAWs.

He was simply highlighting an interesting problem that many musicians encounter as they dip their toes into the water of recording their music for the first time.

That aside, he very clearly refuted your three assertions:

1. That ALL engineers are musicians: His examples are correct (Though I believe CLA may be a drummer, if not a great one.) There are still plenty of other examples to draw on.

2. ALL musicians have a grasp of music production: His example of classical musicians is spot on.

3. EVERY DAW is developed by programmers who are musicians: I can't speak on this, but since he's a DAW developer, he'd sure as hell know a thing or two about that.

I don't know where you're getting this "holier-than-thou" attitude from. He's just having a conversation. There would be far less cause to refute your points if you didn't speak in so many absolutes ("All", "every").

Take a deep breath, man.

[bryans]

> 1. That ALL engineers are musicians: His examples are correct

No, they're actually not correct. Two of the examples he provided as "non-musican" engineers had tons of experience with producing electronic music, and the other he purported that the engineer wasn't a musician based on no actual knowledge of the person.

> ALL musicians have a grasp of music production: His example of classical musicians is spot on.

As I already explained, classical musicians are the literal only exception in the world of music, as greater than 99% of the work in their lifetime has nothing to do with recording. You don't get to cherry pick the exception and use it as universal statement.

> EVERY DAW is developed by programmers who are musicians: I can't speak on this, but since he's a DAW developer, he'd sure as hell know a thing or two about that.

Again, you're reinforcing his holier-than-thou nonsense while also pretending you don't see it. He is trying to assert himself as having superior knowledge of the subject because he has worked on a DAW. It doesn't matter to either of you that I've worked as a coder on two separate DAWs in my life. So, no, he doesn't magically know more than other people, especially when he's making claims that are completely false and inaccurate to reality.

At the end of the day, he believes that DAWs were never designed to be used by musicians and that it's a mistake to design them for musicians. It can't be interpreted any other way, because it's literally what he said.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

You seem to have a problem understanding what I mean, so I will try clarify:

> there's some widespread belief that a DAW should be a tool for musicians

This means "usable by musicians who find themselves intimidated or confused by the interface on a modern full-service DAW such as ProTools or Logic". This means tools like those appearing for mobile devices that are just basically easy to use recording devices. You can see this plea daily on KVR, Gearspace and other similar places.

This does NOT mean: "musicians should not use DAWs".

> The musicians you know can't be very professional if they haven't ever encountered a situation where they learned anything about audio.

Classical performers: no need to learn about audio. Folk performers: no need to learn about audio. Live acoustic music performers generally: no need to learn about audio.

The set of musicians I was referring to includes two Grammy winners, who, just like many amateur and other professional musicians, have chosen to focus their attention on their music rather than the process of recording (or PA'ing) it.

> Except all of the buttons and faders and everything else still look the same.

Where was the last mixing console you saw that did stretch-to-fit-tempo? That ran arbitrary plugins? That allowed arbitrary anywhere-to-anywhere routing? That needed, somehow, to fit in information about editing state alongside the mixer interface? That could do clip launching? That had any editing component at all?

I work with one of the older mixing console companies, and we're constantly bumping against the boundaries of stuff that DAWs do that consoles do not, things that consoles do better than DAWs ever have, things that consoles do that DAWs do not, and so forth. I would say this sort of thing comes up in almost every weekly meeting. The same was true back in 2008/2009 when I worked with (for?) another old mixing console company and they were trying to understand how to reconcile their established products with the reality of DAW-based priduction.

> Every company developing DAWs is primarily engineered by musicians.

I could name several major DAWs whose lead and sub-lead developers are not musicians (or at least, do not consider themselves to be musicians). I could name a few others where the lead and sub-lead developers were not musicians or audio engineers when they began working on their software, but have become so over time.

I don't presume to know your background, and I certainly did not say that "couldn't possibly know anything". I just said that several things in your post I know to be factually incorrect.

[bryans]

> there's some widespread belief that a DAW should be a tool for musicians [...] This means "usable by musicians who find themselves intimidated or confused by the interface [...]

We all understood what you said and meant, and no amount of deflection changes it.

> Classical performers: no need to learn about audio. Folk performers: no need to learn about audio. Live acoustic music performers generally: no need to learn about audio.

Really? You're going to cherry pick classical performers who largely never directly record anything? The only exception in all of music?

Your other two examples, essentially both being folk musicians, are completely wrong and you have zero basis for your assertion, which is apparently that folk musicians don't have any interest in sounding good. As a manager of folk musicians, I can tell you with 100% confidence that you are speaking from a place of complete ignorance.

> Where was the last mixing console you saw that did stretch-to-fit-tempo?

Just because features specific to a digital domain exist, doesn't mean that the DAW interfaces aren't based on real world interfaces. I can't even imagine what you're trying to prove, but it has nothing to do with my statement.

All-in-all, you're doubling down on things that are far from reality, and trying to move the goal posts with every comment. Just admit that you said something completely incorrect and let's all move on with our lives.

[coldtea]

>We all understood what you said and meant, and no amount of deflection changes it.

I beg to defer. I understood what the parent said, but agree with him and disagree with your take.

You also come of as rude. And, to my experience with musicians, also wrong in making those general statements. Many pro musicians don't know about DAWs, and are too intimidated to even use

If your experience is mostly with modern pop/electronic/hip-hop etc mucisians, of course they'll know about DAWs. Or someone playing keyboards in bands, will too. And of course if you are a dev and have dev friends who play guitars and keys and such, they'll also know DAWs.

But there are many many genres outside that, and many pro musicians, or musicians that are not techy, where conventional instruments rule, and musicians who even take pride in not dealing with computers and DAWs, whereas other would like to, but find them intimidating.

And I'm not talking about 50-year olds here. I've recently had a music seminar with 20 or so other musicians, mostly 30 and below, with many at their early 20s, and people playing instruments like cellos, trumpet, etc could barely use basic external effects units, didn't know what things send/return is, and were totally lost of using a DAW.

>Your other two examples, essentially both being folk musicians, are completely wrong and you have zero basis for your assertion, which is apparently that folk musicians don't have any interest in sounding good.

This is not only wrong, but a bad faith strawman...

[least]

> We all understood what you said and meant, and no amount of deflection changes it.

On the contrary, I think you've fully misinterpreted what's been said.

[testermelon]

> Really? You're going to cherry pick classical performers who largely never directly record anything? The only exception in all of music?

I’m sorry but this sounds like you just dismissed classical performers as insignificant musicians just because they don’t fit your categorization that “all musicians also do audio engineering”.

The world is wide, blanket claims like this is bound to have exception, by principle.