[bhhaskin]

This is one of the many reasons why I firmly believe that hydrogen hybrid are the future to replace gas vehicles. Charging at mass scale is just not feasible nor practical for most people.

We can't even roll broadband out properly let alone the massive amounts of infrastructure required to deliver enough power to every home. That leaves centralized charging hubs which will quickly become overwhelmed and a massive time sink.

[socialismisok]

Hydrogen isn't either. The real solution is to not have so many gas vehicles.

There's also no reason we can't provide charging at destinations rather than homes. Workplaces, shopping centers, etc.

Transit, trains, ebikes, etc. are all significantly more efficient, less polluting, and just better solutions all around.

[bhhaskin]

This is simply not practical out side of large urban areas in the US. Not only is distance a factor but also weather. No one is going to be riding an Ebike in 10° winter weather, and a lot of people commute 60+ miles a day.

Not to mention that public transportation in a lot of areas can be... Let's just say perceived as unsafe.

Hydrogen (by itself) is as clean as it can be. The byproduct is water.

[Robotbeat]

Hydrogen requires about 4 times the input electricity per mile driven than electricity for battery electric cars. That’s why it’s so much more expensive and almost no one uses it. And the fueling infrastructure is crazy expensive.

Personally, I think if we do have hydrogen cars in the future, hydrogen cars should require a plug and an enlarged lithium battery (say, 10kWh at least). Otherwise we’ll need to produce FAR more electricity than with battery-electric cars and consumers will be on the hook for far, far higher use costs.

[exabrial]

> Hydrogen requires about 4 times the input electricity per mile

Why does this matter?

[ibotty]

Producing it is a little different though (not necessarily, but most of the time).

[bhhaskin]

I agree, but it's not much different than producing the electricity required for charging EVs.

[Robotbeat]

It requires approximately 4 times the energy to make and distribute hydrogen as charging an EV to go the same distance.

[xsmasher]

Public transit practical in small towns in Europe. How do we fix it in the US?

[Karrot_Kream]

It's cultural. Americans perceive anything but a private automobile to be inconvenient and unsafe, even though stats show that private automobile use is actually fairly dangerous. Changing the culture will take a while.

[Robotbeat]

Charging at scale is just way easier & cheaper than deploying hydrogen infrastructure, and I don’t think people realize just how big of a difference there is. It takes approximately 4 times the electricity (when you include liquefaction, inefficiency of electrolysis, etc) to drive the same distance with hydrogen cars as with electric cars. And Hydrogen cars get about the same range on a tank as electric cars, but even fast charging is only about $3/useful-gallon-equivalent compared to $10/useful-gallon-equivalent for hydrogen even if you have to go Fast Charge once a week or so, you’re still WAY ahead.

Now if you’re talking plug-in hybrid hydrogen cars, that’s fine. You’ll be on pure electric 85% of the time anyway so the crazy expense of hydrogen fueling isn’t so bad.

[trinovantes]

Maybe not viable for personal vehicles but I can see hydrogen fuel used for trucks/ships. Electric batteries are probably too heavy and take too long to recharge for long haul.

[Robotbeat]

Batteries are fine for semi trucks, too, actually. Even 500 miles with full payload. Transoceanic ships are a major challenge for batteries, but the scale is large enough that maybe you could use liquid hydrogen. Or just synth fuels like methane.

[bhhaskin]

The US. department of energy is pushing to have $1 per kilogram by 2030. ($2 per kilogram by 2025). The Toyota Mirai can go 402 miles on 16.8kg of hydrogen. And it takes 5 minutes to fill up.

[Robotbeat]

The actual cost of hydrogen filling stations in California was $10/kg BEFORE the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Now it’s higher.

Takes 5 minutes to fill up if the hydrogen is pre-cooled and you happen to be at the filling station (which is rare).

[zizee]

As another top level comment stated, in a lot of circumstances you can make do with charging an EV from a normal outlet.

The post was mostly about the challenges with regulations/codes. For the most part it was a plea for governments to smooth over the jankiness they introduce to the whole process. Hardly an insurmountable challenge.

Hydrogen is dead. Upgrading the existing electrical network gradually over time (EV adoption will be gradual) is going to be significantly easier than building a distribution network from (almost) scratch as would be required for hydrogen. To think the reverse is bonkers.

[bhhaskin]

Why is hydrogen dead? There are a few hydrogen hybrids coming to market like the BMW i3. It has a 300 mile range and can refill in 5 minutes.

Converting to hydrogen makes wayyy more sense than EV infrastructure. All of the gas station can be easily converted to hydrogen stations with different pumps and tanks. A lot cheaper than running MW of power for a EV station or upgrading neighborhoods.

Then there are people that live in apartments. It isn't feasible to have a charger for every apartment at a complex. So not everyone is going to be able to charge. Even if it is a normal outlet.

There is also the fire danger. I can't even imagine the amount of damage a fire cause by an EV could do to an apartment complex.

Then there is the vandalism issue and mantaince problems involved.

Only if you are rich dose EVs make sense. But on a mass scale they make close to zero sense.

[zizee]

> Why is hydrogen dead?

Car manufacturers are all releasing EVs. How many are really mass producing hydrogen vehicles?

It's a scale and chicken/egg (or two sides market) problem.

Gas stations won't convert until there is a decent number of hydrogen cars on the road (in the area the station is in), and people won't buy hydrogen vehicles if there are no stations to refill at. Manufacturers won't be able to scale production to make the investment worthwhile. EVs do not suffer from this problem as there are many people already in a position to easily charge at home (yes, I know it is not everyone, but it's a large enough market to be self sufficient).

For scale, I'll posit that there isn't room for three different types of power systems. Car companies won't want to invest in hydrogen because it's clear that there will be a significant percentage of people wanting EVs. The market for hydrogen cars will always be shrinking, because EV adoption will always be growing.

Gas station business models are finely tuned, with most of their revenue from convenience goods, petrol sales are just the mechanism to get people into the store to impulse buy. EVs will play havoc with this model. Less people will go to the stations as they will charge at home, causing a feedback loop of stations closing, and ICE vehicles becoming less convenient. It will also result in less money to invest in things like hydrogen tanks and pumps.

The number of EVs is only going to continue to grow, the window for hydrogen gets smaller and smaller (and I think already closed).

> Then there is the vandalism issue and mantaince problems involved.

Not really sure what this means. Presumably you are not talking about the EVs themselves as they require a lot less maintenance than ICE vehicles.

> Only if you are rich dose EVs make sense. But on a mass scale they make close to zero sense.

EVs continue to get cheaper and cheaper. Eventually it just won't make buy new ICE vehicles, even if you have to spend thousands to put in charging infrastructure.

Perhaps it will be only the "rich" who can adopt EVs at the start, but when the majority of new cars are EV, eventually the pool of 2nd hand ICE vehicles will become mostly EVs as well. It's inevitable.

[bhhaskin]

Both BMW and Toyota have hydrogen cars.

We are talking about the infrastructure of EVs not EVs them selfs. The price is dropping on EVs, but that won't matter if most people can't charge them. Which is the problem.

Vandalism is becoming more and more of a problem with EV charging stations. People are stealing the Copper wires. That will be a major issue at apartment complexes if they install charging stations.

The US. department of energy is pushing to have $1 per kilogram by 2030. ($2 per kilogram by 2025). The Toyota Mirai can go 402 miles on 16.8kg of hydrogen. And it takes 5 minutes to fill up.

[zizee]

> BMW and Toyota have hydrogen cars.

How many have shipped? How many gas stations are pumping hydrogen?

> most people can't charge them

And yet there are millions of them on the road, with numbers always increasing.

The strength of EVs, and why they will win over hydrogen is that they can be adopted regardless of what the majority are doing, incremental instead of big bang. There is a sizable market of people who can charge EVs. This number is only going to grow as more and more apartments/carpark are being fitted with chargers (which people have already said are not a necessity). It's not a small task, but it can be done gradually, unlike hydrogen. Unless you get some massive coordinated effort between multiple car companies and gas stations to roll out hydrogen refil stations across an entire country in preparation for hoped for sales, people just won't buy them. EV naysayers love to talk about range anxiety for EVs. Imagine the range anxiety if you had a hydrogen vehicle today.

[fomine3]

Gas is too convenient and cheap for now and foreseeable future, compared to hydrogen. Hydrogen isn't matter unless existing gas is banned. At that time (2045?), BEV will cover most personal use cases.

[cycrutchfield]

> Converting to hydrogen makes wayyy more sense than EV infrastructure. All of the gas station can be easily converted to hydrogen stations with different pumps and tanks. A lot cheaper than running MW of power for a EV station or upgrading neighborhoods.

Care to cite any sources?

[mwint]

> different pumps and tanks

This sounds suspiciously like “rip out the gas station and build a new hydrogen station”

[bhhaskin]

We are literally commenting on a post about how upgrading to EV charging was cost prohibited.

[fomine3]

Source for hydrogen conversion cost

[creakingstairs]

I do agree with you that hybrids are way to go but I'm also happy for EV go for it as well. We should be tackling this issue in every way possible, including changing urban landscapes to be more pedestrian/ public transport friendly.

[sien]

Why not electro-fuels ?

Prometheus and others have plans that may come to fruition.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31264388

[BizarroLand]

It's a good idea but the issue is convincing big money to buy in. Without billions of dollars invested this tech will just get thrown in the back with all of the other world changing technologies that need billions of dollars of investment to succeed.

[silisili]

Absolutely agreed.

Electric cars are for the rich. And of course they say it's the future and everyone should do it, without realizing it's literally impossible. No grid in the US could come close to handling that, much less in developing countries.

Not to mention due to range limitations, many people and companies are ruled out automatically.

I don't think electric is bad, or should go away. But it's not meant for the masses. I think H has a brighter future worldwide.

[socialismisok]

Hydrogen is less energy per volume than gas, it requires pressure vessels rather than tanks, it's stored pressurized in vehicles and stations, it makes materials it contacts brittle, it relies on a manufacturing process that either requires natural gas production or a huge excess of electrical energy, fuel stations are huge capital costs, etc.

I could go on, but it just doesn't make sense to pin hopes on hydrogen.

[bhhaskin]

The exact same thing can be said about EVs and then some.

Batteries are less energy per volume than gas. Batteries are extremely hazardous if damaged. They have a relatively short lifespan. They are hardcore industrial hazardous waste. Power generation is likely coming from a gas power plant or even a coal power plant. The required infrastructure upgrades would be astronomical.

[cycrutchfield]

> Power generation is likely coming from a gas power plant or even a coal power plant.

A significantly more efficient plant than an ICE.

[avtolik]

There are so many false statements in your post, I don't even know where to start.

The grid absolutely can handle EVs.

The range of modern EVs is totally fine for almost all cases.

The price is an issue, but even in my poor Eastern European country the number of EV exploded this year. Mainly second hand small city cars, but also others.

[silisili]

The same grid that can't handle heat waves without begging people to turn off AC, and even then having rolling blackouts, can handle everyone charging at night or after work at the same time, too?

Almost everyone in the midwest and mountain west considers a 3 hr (one way) drive a normalish weekly or monthly event. Sure, it's not most people, but it's not some tiny outlier.

I'm completely fine with being made a fool of, but I'm going to need more than 'yeah, it can do it.'

[saagarjha]

Absolutely. The reason the grid begs you to turn off your AC is because you do it at 4 PM when there isn't enough power. EVs charge at night when demand is low.

[Jtype]

demand won't be low if that's when everyone is charging their EVs. lol

[organsnyder]

Time-of-use pricing combined with scheduled charging solves this, and is already widely available.

[readthenotes1]

"The grid absolutely can handle EVs."

Maybe yours can.

In California, they were recently asked to not charge cars during certain times of the day because the power system could not support the additional load.

My understanding is that California's grid could have supported the load, they just weren't able to generate the electricity required to do so.

[avtolik]

Almost all EV owners are charging them during the night, when the electricity demand is lower.

And ok, maybe some upgrades will be needed in some places. But the situation is not so dark as the person above described it.

[silisili]

Keep in mind, if my math is right, CA is at like 6% electric vehicle saturation. So basically multiply that load they claim not to be able to handle by 16.

[cycrutchfield]

The vast majority of home EV charging happens at night. Is that when CA was telling people not to charge their cars?

[silisili]

Would America even function if gas stations were only open at night?

[cycrutchfield]

If you could fill up your gas tank in your garage, probably most people would be just fine.

[Defitio]

Huh?

Are you not cooking?

Our stove needs 1kw and our oven has 6kw.

It's not crashing when everyone is cooking why would it crash when everyone is charging?

Also it costs more (energy wise) to make H and then consume it than using the energy itself. This should probably has a relevant cost saving.

Economy of scale will bring much cheaper batteries very soon. Let's say 10-20 years

[silisili]

Cooking is super bursty, and at variable times, and for short durations. And even then, varies by day.

It's not at all the same as everyone on planet earth in the same hemisphere trying to charge their cars during peak summer AC time, between 4 and 6ish pm.

[Defitio]

Either you charge over night than you can charge slow and steady ( I did this at my parents house a few times with 800watts or so, which is not a lot) or at work where you already can have smart charging.

Independent of this, plenty of counties use energy to heat (consumes a lot) or have ac which also pulls a lot.

Ev charging is estimated with 10% additional load on a power grid. That's doable.

Is it a challenge? Yes. In one place more than in another place

[cycrutchfield]

> everyone on planet earth in the same hemisphere trying to charge their cars during peak summer AC time

Why do you keep parroting this nonsense? Virtually nobody charges their car at this time

[silisili]

I don't see how it's nonsense. Everyone keeps saying 'at night', but more realistically for most people, when they get home from work.

[Defitio]

My car itself can control when it's charging.

If you use anything more fancy on the PV side you can also control it on the other side.

And for more than one flat, load control is already available. We're I life we have 90 cars in the parking garage and there is a load controller

[frumper]

You plug in when you get home, and your car doesn’t actually charge until it’s scheduled…sometime later at night. Mine starts at 8pm. During the heatwave I bumped it to 10pm because it doesn’t really matter to me. It’s done charging in about 3 hours.