[fritztastic]

Something about this just seems very odd to me.

As someone who grew up in the global South, this reads to me like a person from a privileged background trying to relate to the everyday people in other places and the marginalized- but it comes off sounding like a lot of projectionand assumptions- it would read much better if the conclusions were accompanied with dialogue from people, maybe explanations of where those statements are coming from.

>I don’t travel like most people do I would think most travel is done by a wealthy few, but most travelers aren't wealthy- if that makes sense? It sounds like the "travel" being referred to here is "flying somewhere and being a tourist" but in fact to many people "travel" means taking the train/bus to another city, staying in a hostel, wandering around. Most people who go to see a wonder of the world do it because this might be the one time in their life they can afford to visit NYC, a place many people dream of seeing, and so they want to experience those things that are iconic there. I guess it really stands out to me, this writing sounds like "I'm not like those other stereotypical tourists" and the stereotypes are those behaviors associated with privileged westerners- which isn't really an accurate representation of most travelers.

From the Istanbul post:

>Most Turks are not secular though, and neither are they religious nuts like them Arabs

He considers education by traveling as sufficient, which I believe is not the best approach. Might be a good idea to read up a little about the history and cultures of a region before going.

There is a lot going on with his writing that comes off ethnocentric, uninformed, insensitive. I'm not going to dissect it, but I'll just say I recommend familiarization with cultural geography, anthropology, and ethnography if the topic of understanding people in different places interests you- because this blog is rife with problematic bias and some really broad generalizations that are prejudice at best, racism at worst.

[kodah]

Actually, your synopsis isn't far off: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Arnade Before he did it to the rest of the world, he did it to others in the United States.

FWIW, it looks like he's watching: https://twitter.com/Chris_arnade/status/1580993239670136832 So maybe he'll take your criticism.

[fritztastic]

Wow, the criticism of his "Faces of Affiction" work is spot on.

From his Istanbul post:

>Because being an addict here is an ugly and gross rebellion against a town that feels like a single massive mosque. A place that is welcoming, humble, peaceful, and sublimely beautiful. It is like pissing on an alter. A gross, ugly, and rebellious act that will bring scorn and shame. Both in the physical and spiritual world. US cities by comparison have all the ethos of an office park. Drab, soulless, and endlessly competitive, where selfishness is rewarded. Being an addict there is like pissing on the drab shrub at the edge of a massive parking lot. It doesn’t feel that wrong. It even feels a little right. Especially if your a tad depressed. A tad isolated. A tad lonely. And many people are."

There is an issue here with this attempt at documenting people but without taking the time to learn and understand how to do it respectfully, ethically, and with consideration to the people he's observing. I want to believe his motivation comes from a good place, that he wants to bring attention to people's lives... but the way his writing reads sounds more like the fetishization of the marginalized and elitism over exceptionalism. It sounds like "yes I'm privileged but unlike those other privileged people I talk to the poors", because rather than centering the voices of the people he claims to "inhabit their tiny slice of the world"(while claiming his goal is "to better understand how they see the universe and their place in it") he dishes out his value judgements. The hubris that all you need to get an idea of how people live is to... show up. He does write that he sees traveling as fiction with the plot written in real time- evidently with him as the MC. He seems to want to change for the better though, and I hope he learns to invest a little more time into figuring out how to look at people's lives more respectfully than as entertainment.

[Chris_arnade]

"rather than centering the voices of the people he claims to "inhabit their tiny slice of the world"

I wrote a book center the voices of marginalized people I spent up to 10 years with during my time documenting addiction in the US. It's called Dignity. I don't expect you to read it, but perhaps if you did, your criticisms would be different.

This project, walking around the world and sending dispatches, is different. While I talk to plenty of people during my trips, its a more macro based approach.

While I appreciate your takes, I will say your making some pretty huge assumptions based on one article. Such is life!

Take care and be well

[smoldesu]

I grew up in between Ypsilanti & Detroit, and I've lived around/in a number of borderline-impoverished communities. It's not my place to make generalizations, but you should be aware that your tourism is not always welcome. Many, if not most of these people, are not proud of their situation. They might smile and take your money as you photograph them, but your motivations are not mutual.

When I was a kid, my decently wealthy grandparents visited on my birthday and offered me $100 if I'd cut my "garish, girly" hair down to a more typical length. Self-righteous allegories aside, I still feel that choice burned into my head like a brand. They let me choose between living as I am, a resented shame in a family too poor to buy cans of Coke or Pokemon cards, or take $100 to humiliate myself for a few short moments. In the end I rejected them, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't dream about yo-yos and Bakugan that night.

Nowadays I thankfully live in a different economic strata, and I even sympathize with your curiosity to explore different cultures and lifestyles. You should stay fully aware of your optics at all times, though. Sometimes, the greatest charity is treating other individuals with the same respect you give your peers.

[Chris_arnade]

Again. There is nothing in this I disagree with. But there is a lot of assumptions on what I have wrote over my last 12 years based on not reading what I wrote.

If you read Dignity, and come to the same conclusion. Fine. But this thread is based on a Wiki page.

Congrats on Living in a different Eco strata. That is well done! (no snark intended. Genuine congrats)

[smoldesu]

I'm not here to throw stones at you or tell you that you're wrong. You can't expect your entire bibliography to be required-reading in an HN thread though (or anywhere else, for that matter). Take my concerns with the levity of someone who has no idea what your work entails, since that's pretty much all it is.

[Aeolun]

> They might smile and take your money as you photograph them, but your motivations are not mutual.

In my experience. Dealing with tourists like this generates mostly bemusement. They come into your life, spice it up for a little while, and then they disappear again. You don’t expect anything different.

I don’t think most people consider that they’ll be written about on some random travel blog later, nor that it will be in any way relevant to them.

> too poor to buy cans of Coke or Pokemon cards

It’s so weird to read this and then consider that some people do/did see this as the standard of being ‘not poor’. I’d have never considered myself poor, but every time I read stuff like this I wonder if others would have considered my family so.

[smoldesu]

I'm being pretty pessimistic here, I admit. At the same time though, documenting this stuff is a fragile task. I mostly oppose to the monetary incentive side of it, which creates unfair power dynamics between photographer who used to be a day trader for two decades and someone less-fortunate. Maybe other people are less sensitive to that, it's just my two cents.

> It’s so weird to read this and then consider that some people do/did see this as the standard of being ‘not poor’.

It's all relative. Both of my parents were working full-time and also addicts, which made the money pretty tight. There were definitely weeks where we lived paycheck-to-paycheck. Again though, none of this is to throw a personal pity party. My larger disagreement comes down to his methods.

[kodah]

It might be possible that what you're doing is both noble and controversial. That may be inescapable from what you're trying to do.

There's a certain burden that comes with being from the areas you've covered, which based on my limited reading of your Substack (today) I think you understand. Being a Florida boy might help too. Rust Belt came out some time ago, it was after I got out of the military I believe. I remember not being a fan, mainly because I felt like it would fuel stereotypes about "back row" Americans. I think I was wrong at the time assuming your work would be fuel for that; much of America is already predispositioned to disliking the Midwest and South for a variety of reasons. It probably didn't help I was living in a trailer at the time and at a low point of my life; in that way, I think it was a reminder of what the mirror looks like (though I was not a Trump voter, Rust Belt covered a lot of culture too).

In some way, I think because there's a burden for the people who live and escape those experiences there is also a burden for you in telling that story. We are stuck in a state where front, and maybe middle row, people often just do not have a point of reference for McDonalds being a local watering hole (as an example). I see it in online discourse, I hear it in the areas I've lived in with my job, and I feel it in the runs of politics. I still thank my lucky stars I was able to leave, but I had better opportunities and luck than most.

All that to say, I'll buy Dignity. You at least dared to tell the stories of people whom the most powerful parts of the United States call "flyover".

[alasdair_]

> You at least dared to tell the stories of people whom the most powerful parts of the United States call "flyover".

I always hated that term. There was always supreme irony in it - after all, “flyover country” is where the Wright brothers are from.

[jholman]

What's the irony?

[alchemist1e9]

I’m curious if you have actually been anywhere in Turkey and lived there. I have and for me his perspective is extremely accurate from my experience. I’ve cumulatively lived over 1 year of my life, living as a local, not a tourist, and there are many issues in Turkey, but mental health and drug abuse is simply culturally handled very differently and the US is an embarrassment in comparison.

[jltsiren]

> I would think most travel is done by a wealthy few, but most travelers aren't wealthy- if that makes sense? It sounds like the "travel" being referred to here is "flying somewhere and being a tourist" but in fact to many people "travel" means taking the train/bus to another city, staying in a hostel, wandering around. Most people who go to see a wonder of the world do it because this might be the one time in their life they can afford to visit NYC

I think you are ignoring middle class mass tourism. Between the privileged few who stay at chain hotels and the people going for once-in-a-lifetime experiences, there are many people who travel as tourists once every year or two.

Growing up in Finland in the 80s, I got used to an environment where most families could afford traveling around Europe. If there was a nice destination a travel agency could charter flights to without fighting the regulators for years, it was quickly filled with cheap hotels and restaurants catering to middle class tourists. Getting there was usually 1/3 of the costs, the hotel was another 1/3, and the money you spent on other expenses was the final 1/3.

Today flying is even cheaper. Regardless of whether you are from a nearby town or from another country thousands of kilometers away, the costs of staying at the destination are likely to dominate.

[csomar]

It seems he didn't do much travelling (from his blog?). Many people on HN would have done more. It also seems that he wrote off an entire continent (Africa) which is the cheapest to travel, has the most to experience and probably is the best adventure out there for travelers.

He has biases and he is travelling to confirm his biases; not to change them or let new ideas in. He is using a bit of a rough language to attract readers and collect up-votes.

[rippercushions]

Paradoxically, traveling Africa can be very expensive, because many parts are so poor and unvisited that there is no demand (and hence no supply) for reasonable transport, hotels, etc. The locals just don't travel long distance, and if they do, it's squashed into a clapped-out truck going to the market with a flock of goats, and it's two weeks until the next one.

The cheapest places to travel are middle-income places like Thailand and Vietnam, where there is plenty of local demand but wages have not risen to Western levels yet.

[coldtea]

>Paradoxically, traveling Africa can be very expensive, because many parts are so poor and unvisited that there is no demand (and hence no supply) for reasonable transport, hotels, etc.

You just use "unreasonable transport, hotels", which is fine if you're the kind of "traveller" the author claims to be. Due to cost of living differences, they are still much cheaper than Thailand and Vietnam.

It's only "very expensive" if you go for luxury in those places (and even then, due to cost of living, it's cheaper than comparable luxury elsewhere, except if you go to some place that only caters to the elite). For exampke, if there's no transport in a country in Africa, you can usually just hire a guy to serve as a driver for several days - and it's often less than what you pay for a simple train ride betweem countries in Europe.

[eckesicle]

No, GP is right.

My firm has conducted over 50 projects in rural Africa last year, and the cost of living and transportation is most certainly inversely proportional to how developed the area is.

The local options simply aren't available to outsiders.

[csomar]

I understand if you are looking for a minimum of comfort but I thought the main point of the article is to go the "rough" way. You can always bring a car from Europe (cheap) and drive starting from the North and getting into the Ivory Coast and neighboring countries.

Lots of people (Westerners) are doing it every year. They have groups and connect with one another. You won't be alone.