[inglor_cz]

My wife speaks Spanish fluently and we often travel to Spain.

Spain as such may not be exactly poor, but quite a lot of people are living in very subpar conditions. Andalusia in particular has a lot of visibly poor natives. Even African migrants do not want to stay there and if they manage to cross the Strait of Gibraltar, they immediately travel north to France/Britain/Germany.

[yrgulation]

Oh please. Thats like saying california is poor because san francisco has homeless people. Just because people dont drive fancy cars or homes arent refurbished in a region where it rarely rains it doesnt mean they are poor. Even east eu is rich compared to most of the world. I agree with you on slow growth but eu countries are anything but poor. Mismanaged yes. Poor not so much.

[inglor_cz]

I am not sure if it has anything to do with rain. Israel does not have much rain either and homes look much better there. And when we speak to the locals in Spain, their typical complaint is that they struggle to make the ends meet. "I wasn't on a vacation for seven years." - "I think twice before taking a RENFE train even though it is twice as fast as a bus." - "Kids won't probably be getting new laptops ever." etc.

Comparisons to the rest of the world are misleading. Being better off than Algeria or Brazil isn't that much of a result. Spanish people naturally compare themselves to other Europeans and the gap between the relative riches of Spain and, say, (West) Germany or Switzerland, is pretty visible. So is the fact that the gap does not seem to be closing, rather the other way round.

I agree that mismanagement is a huge part of the problem, and that it is mostly domestic. For one, the political parties seem to be enormously corrupt, on par with the Balkans.

[yrgulation]

I’ve been to germany and belgium recently and frankly wasnt impressed. German roads are constantly under maintenance - cant they just build them right or why are they constantly being fixed? Belgian motorways had potholes in them and were poorly marked.

Also most germans dont own the properties they live in and their savings would last enough for maybe a month.

Anyway the idea is that there are issues everywhere in europe you just need keep your eyes wide open. The solution is policies that benefit everyone.

Also i doubt spanish politicians are that corrupt. Or indeed any within the eu. There is corruption in the eu and even germany but nowhere near that level.

[GekkePrutser]

German roads are under so much maintenance to prevent the potholes you see In Belgium ;). Can't have your cake and eat it. When I used to drive from Holland to Belgium it was very clear when we'd enter the country. No signs needed, when the road gets super noisy and bumpy you know you're in Belgium.

And remember that many German motorways still have no speed limit. Hitting a pothole at 250kph is not fun and as such they need to be maintained to high standards.

And when there's a fair rental system with restricted prices there is no need to own property. Not sure if Germany has this but I know Austria does and Vienna is thriving on it.

[LargoLasskhyfv]

When I used to be driven from Arnhem to Oberhausen (ca. 199x) it's been very obvious when you've crossed the border to .de, not even because of the checkpoints, which still existed then, but because of the noises the car made when it went over the gaps between the concrete plates which probably were the same as in 194x, or so, when they Autobahn has been built.

Very annoying when stoned!

[yrgulation]

France and the netherlands have good roads and yet they dont constantly have to maintain them.

If germany would build them right and with quality in mind the first time they wouldnt break so often.

Not sure where you can reach 250kph if most of the autobahn is under repairs.

But speaking of driving in germany i found the constant tailgating and the general aggressiveness and flashing similar to east europe 10 years ago. Horrible driving culture.

But yes we can all agree belgian roads are in a league of their own. Suppose that makes belgium poor?

I am new to this game but from what i gather is that any country that has a visible issue is poor.

Maybe germany is poor because it cant afford gas? A german minister was complaining that american lng is too expensive for germany. Also renting and the government stepping in to keep rents at a low price sounds like poverty and socialism to me. Not a good sign.

[_abox]

> France and the netherlands have good roads and yet they dont constantly have to maintain them.

Yes they do. In the Netherlands there's a lot of maintenance going on. Once on a trip to my workplace at the time (75km away) I counted 12 individual speed restrictions due to roadwork. I constantly had to switch between 120, 100 and 70kph. Most of it happens during the night though. I guess Germany doesn't always do this.

> Also renting and the government stepping in to keep rents at a low price sounds like poverty and socialism to me. Not a good sign.

I personally like socialism and many in Europe do. The richest countries have the best welfare systems in general (like Scandinavia). Holland itself is an unfortunate exception with its Anglo-Saxon liberal model.

It's becoming more important as the housing market is out of control and buying a house is near impossible now on a modal salary. Regulation keeps pricing fair to those who need it. It's not a sign of poverty but of the systemic choices we make.

> But speaking of driving in germany i found the constant tailgating and the general aggressiveness and flashing similar to east europe 10 years ago. Horrible driving culture.

This is something we do agree on :) I try to avoid driving in Germany.

[mmarq]

Actually I’d be very surprised if houses in Spain where worse than houses in Britain, whose lack of housing quality rivals with some central African countries.

[yrgulation]

I wouldnt insult central african countries by comparing their housing quality to the appalling housing quality in britain.