[BurningFrog]

What you or I, or even Gates do in our personal lives has absolutely no effect on climate change.

Solutions or failures happen in other contexts. Gates does some real work in those.

The whole "I must recycle all my plastic bags or the planet will die" mentality is, to me, a weird form of delusion of grandeur. Seeing past that can be both freeing and depressing :)

[id]

It can be freeing to lie to yourself, but it remains a lie. Of course limiting personal pollution has an effect.

[BurningFrog]

I think we can have disagreements without calling each other liars.

[id]

It's not a disagreement. You made a false statement, I called it out.

[BurningFrog]

I disagree!

[mathieuh]

Yes, we saw this over covid lockdowns where the massively reduced number of cars on the road resulted in a dramatic improvement in air quality around cities. If enough individuals start taking the bus or cycling in we can definitely improve our local environment, regardless of the minuscule effect on a global scale.

[wahnfrieden]

Why do you think plastics recycling was originally campaigned for by big oil? It’s a pacifying non-solution that gets people to focus on their neighbors behaviors instead of anyone with power

[lotsofpulp]

It is a pacifying non solution that lets people continue consuming themselves, while letting them feel like they are not harming the environment.

[ZeroGravitas]

No, big oil has always opposed plastic recycling, because it reduces their sales of gas feedstock.

They have always pushed "blaming the consumer for trash", and disparaged "producer responsibility" and "plastic recycling" (except in blaming the consumer for not recycling, but that's just a variant of blaming them for trash).

It's weird to now see people pointing to the same organisations that opposed these things, and claiming they campaigned for them.

In countries/states with functional governments that aren't owned by fossil fuels, plastic recycling has happened as just one of a suite of measures and has always been successful. Every academic study of it has agreed it's the best thing for the economy and planet.

In others states, the ones that are in thrall to big oil, it didn't really happen, and then the people who don't want it to happen appear to have recently started claiming "hah, we (i.e. the big evil oil corps) wanted you to recycle, so now you shouldn't do it, that'll teach us".

This is the kind of reverse psychology that works really well on toddlers.

[wahnfrieden]

You have a lot of confidence to begin that wall of text with “No” https://www.npr.org/2020/03/31/822597631/plastic-wars-three-... etc, get informed

you’re sorely missing what my point could be if you think it’s nihilism / hah fine to be wasteful, another spin on the individualist solution making I attacked in my comment

[ZeroGravitas]

You're literally citing big oil executives:

> Despite this, three former top officials, who have never spoken publicly before, said the industry promoted recycling as a way to beat back a growing tide of antipathy toward plastic.

And in doing so they get to repeat their "plastic recycling doesn't work" rhetoric.

As soon as you force the producers to pay for disposal and let them figure out how best to do it, recycling suddenly, magically becomes the cheapest option.

https://www.wastedive.com/news/2021-state-extended-producer-...

[wahnfrieden]

You had a problem with me saying that big oil campaigned for recycling which is exactly what the article says

> Recycling, the former officials told NPR and Frontline, became a way to preempt the bans and sell more plastic

> "The feeling was the plastics industry was under fire, we got to do what it takes to take the heat off, because we want to continue to make plastic products," Thomas says.

[boringg]

self-removed for inaccuracy.

[wahnfrieden]

how rude, are you just uninformed right now? https://www.npr.org/2020/03/31/822597631/plastic-wars-three-...

[boringg]

I think you miss that one persons effort if collective done has an impact. So if everyone recycles or lowers their energy use it has impact. However if one person doesn't, that in and of itself won't change the trajectory, however if everyone did it would.

I'm sure there is some kind of name for this.

[grooot]

Yes - it’s called the tragedy of the commons.

Trying to shame people into using less never solves this problem. It just means there is more available for the shameless. The solution as are either to regulate the commons, or find a better way to meet our needs.

[BurningFrog]

That's true. So take that thought a little further.

How does it happen that everyone, on average, recycles or uses less energy?

In general, by making non recycling or energy use more expensive. This can come from regulation, taxes, social pressure. Technical innovation can also sidestep whole issues by using less energy/materials and/or producing more. Maybe there are a few other paths.

Those things actually make a difference. Focus on them.