[lapink]

I live in Paris. For tourists or travelers the alternative are not really ready. Ticket on smartphone support is bad (only specific models, and no iPhones) and unlike London or Brussel, you cannot use your credit card as a ticket.

So your only hope is to already have a dedicated rechargeable card. But this card is not sold in the automated machine. So if you are a tourist in some small station and you realize at midnight that you need to take the subway, there will be no way to buying a ticket…

Im all for ending those tickets, but the RATP is really bad at supporting alternatives.

[countvonbalzac]

Can't be worse than my visit to Rome last month. All the locals had their monthly passes, but all of the tourists bought paper tickets. Only problem was the bus to the Vatican had an issue with its ticket scanner - it didn't exist. Of course that bus got stopped and each of the tourists got a 55 euro fine. When I pointed out that the scanner was missing, the inspector didn't speak English, but when it came time to pay the fine, her English was flawless.

[paganel]

> the inspector didn't speak English

Next time, if that happens again, you need to be more assertive, by going with a: "Ma vai fanculo, vai!" (difficult to translate), followed by a more mellow "io non pago niente!" (I won't pay anything), and physically try to make a way out of the whole situation.

Granted, I'm not an Italian and I don't live in Italy, but I do live in a city very similar to Rome in many other aspects, and I've seen myself around these parts how foreign tourists are sometimes "hunted" for fines the same as it happened to you. In many cases those applying the abusive fines go for the "easy prey", as soon as you show some hints of fighting back they let you go, so to speak, not worth the hassle for them (especially as they also know that they're doing something very shitty and abusive).

[rippercushions]

Being assertive is fine, but surely starting off with telling an officer to go fuck themselves as your opening gambit is a bit bold?

[ramesh31]

Hard for Americans to understand, but people interface differently with authority figures who don’t carry guns or have a license to murder at will.

[ReactiveJelly]

I think they were trying to physically make a way out, but there was no ticket scanner for the bus.

[Hikikomori]

Also visited rome about s month ago, no issues but only traveled by subway and used mu credit card.

[GuB-42]

Paris has about the worst card system I have ever seen. In other places I have been to where there is a transport card system, anyone can buy a card, usually in a vending machine in a convenient location, and do everything with it. Locals may have nominative cards that work in the same way, but are also tied to an account.

In Paris you have the following (at least you did a year ago):

- Paper tickets

- Prepaid, non-nominative cards that can be used for single trips and day-long unlimited travel plans, but no more than that

- Prepaid, nominative cards that support day-long and week-long travel plans, but not single trips

- Nominative cards that can do all of the above and more, but only for locals

- There is also the app, that has other limitations

And there is also some weirdness with connections. Metro to train may or may not be possible on a single ticket. Metro to RER usually is, but Metro to tram is not, unless maybe if you have the right card.

Why can't they do a single card that does everything, like in all other countries? Or maybe two, a non-nominative and a nominative one.

[midoridensha]

>In other places I have been to where there is a transport card system, anyone can buy a card, usually in a vending machine in a convenient location, and do everything with it. Locals may have nominative cards that work in the same way, but are also tied to an account.

Yep, this is how it is in Japan (but without the account bit). You buy a Suica or Passmo card at the airport when you arrive for 500 yen, "charge" it with a bunch of cash (which you helpfully get at the 7-bank ATM down the hall), then you can use that *everywhere in the whole country* for public transit, and many other things too if you want, like vending machines and many restaurants. (It's generally better to use a credit card for places that take it, but still, the option exists.) There's no advantage for locals either; everyone gets the same card, and it's not linked to any account.

Finally, when you're ready to leave the country, you can visit the customer service counter and surrender the card, and they will give you (in cash) the remaining balance on the card, plus the 500 yen deposit.

Also, unlike in Paris, you don't have to worry about any rude service people in Japan. Everyone is always polite here.

[iggldiggl]

The Dutch made some similar mistakes. A certain number of discounts (amongst them any sort of child-rate fares!) are only available with a personal OV chipkaart, but

a) for a long time a personal card was only obtainable with a Dutch bank account and/or address of residence

b) the only improvement these days is that residents of the countries with a direct border with the Netherlands (i.e. Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany) can get one, too, but it still needs to be ordered in advance. And anybody else is still left out, even though e.g. a resident of Lille (in France) is actually living closer to the Dutch border than a German from Munich.

Another thing is that with the switch from paper tickets to the OV chipkaart they sort of got rid of cross-operator through tickets, which means that

a) e.g. when travelling on the national railway network, you now need to pay attention whether you're also changing train operators when happening to change trains – in that case you must check out and back in again

b) checking out and back in resets reset the distance-based fare price degression, so it's more expensive. I think they continued tweaking some things here, so it's no longer quite as egregious as when originally introduced, but it's still somewhat of a step back compared to real through tickets.

And for anonymous chipkaarts there's a relatively high minimum top-up (technically 20 €, effectively 16 € as you're allowed 4 € of overdraft) required in order to be allowed to travel on the railways at all, which is unattractive for occasional travellers and shortish trips that might otherwise only cost a few euro (in which case a single use ticket might be a better option, as it "only" carries an 1 € surcharge).

[johnwalkr]

I recently travelled to Paris a few times as a tourist. I normally travelled by train and metro. But on the last trip, a bus was much faster according to google maps.

Researched and knew the bus that would take me to my hotel. Checked google and the physical sign at the bustop at Gare de L'est. It confirmed you can buy a ticket on the bus. Tried to board a bus and got yelled at by another customer and the driver for not knowing I have to buy a ticket ahead of time at a machine or use "SMS ticket" which I wasn't eager to use and probably wouldn't even have worked on my foreign phone plan.

OK, I happen to know from previous bad experience I can't buy a ticket anywhere nearby the bus stop but have to go to the basement in the station to buy a ticket which is located at the entrance to the metro. The lineup is 20 people deep and the machine is SLOW to use. Definitely takes 2-3 minutes per person. After 10 minutes of googling about cards for tourists I have learned that you can only get a card if you live in Paris, confirm your address, and even then it takes 2-3 weeks to get one. There is a card you can get as a tourist, but it's only useful for expensive day passes, not for taking 1-2 euro trips. Is there another solution for paying for transit? Maybe, but good luck finding out what it is, I certainly could not in 10 minutes of googling or asking my French friends.

The solution was a 30 euro taxi ride.

Paris the the number 1 tourist destination on the planet, a travel hub city, has a great public transportation system, and from my experience is a great place for travel and probably to live. It's sad that they discontinued a simple metro ticket and require a special card to travel that is not readily available to tourists (or if it is, I certainly couldn't figure out a way to board a bus or predict how to board the metro next year). From personal experience, throughout the entire world, I have never experienced not being able to board public transit by using cash or credit card either on board or from a nearby, working ticket machine. I have experienced simply using cash, using my tap to pay card, or missing one train/bus due to figuring out how to find a local ticket card or transit card. Only in Paris have I literally given up and taken a taxi.

[WastingMyTime89]

> After 10 minutes of googling about cards for tourists I have learned that you can only get a card if you live in Paris

That hasn’t been true for years. Anyone can get a pay-as-you-go card which you can top up from your phone or a machine inside every station. The only issue is that you have to buy them either from a counter in a station or from one of the numerous approved shops.

You can also pay the bus from inside. I don’t know what you are talking about. From the tone of your post, you probably didn’t bother saying hello and just started talking in English so the driver told you to get lost.

[throwaway5959]

Paris is so openly hostile to tourists (strangers were more helpful than staff). I’m happy to visit everywhere else as we do more visits to Europe.

[WastingMyTime89]

Paris is fine for tourists. People just expect to be treated with politeness and decency which is not how Americans generally behave with staff.

Just say hi, please, thank you, ask people if they speak English or show a minimum of contrition when talking directly in English to show you realise it would be nicer to speak the language of the land, everything will be fine.

It’s puzzling to me why people expect things to go well visiting France without studying what’s considered polit and what’s not. It’s the capital of a country. It’s not Disneyland.

[throwaway5959]

My wife and I were plenty polite, like I said many of our interactions with everyday people were fine. It was some of the workers in restaurants and hotels that were rude. There was also the pickpocket at the train station impersonating a station worker (thankfully we ignored them and the attendant in the booth told them to go away).

It’s OK though. It’s your city. We’re happy to visit elsewhere and I’m sure you’re happy we’re not there, silly Americans that we are.

[29083011397778]

While I'm sure you knew to say please and thank you, and at least try to use their language, you also can't really deny some of your countrymen have given you a poor reputation. It's come to the point that your reputation is so bad, the common advice is to impersonate Canadians.

Were the Parisiens wrong to be rude? Probably. Could they have simply learned from other Americans that being rude is the default? I would assume so. I'm not saying it's your fault, just that it can be easier to assume the next Americans will be as loud and obnoxious as the last ones.

[missedthecue]

There is a difference I think between getting a lesser or more reserved level of friendliness and getting outright rudeness and hostility.

[ekianjo]

The service is awful in Paris. You dont need to be offended by that fact.

Only parisians can get used to it.

[WastingMyTime89]

Seriously service is very much fine in Paris. Most people are very nice. It’s always Americans complaining about it. I witness it everyday. Most American tourist expects service to be nice for no reason, is unpleasant, goes to the wrong person and then is surprised people are rude.

Stop acting like you are owed something. It’s all going to get better.

[jen20]

Even provincial French people I know complain about Parisiens being rude and unhelpful. Personally I’ve never had an issue as an English person who learned metropolitan French at school. Montreal though… wow.

[ekianjo]

> Stop acting like you are owed something. It’s all going to get better.

Why do you assume I am American or something? Travel just anywhere on Earth and you will be better served than in Paris.

[shakow]

> The service is awful in Paris.

It really depends where you end up.

The popular and/or well situated places tend to not give a shit, because what will you do? You're just one of a thousand customers waiting to get there, so screw you.

More standard places however, tend to be like any other places I witnessed in Europe, i.e. filled with run-of-the-mill merchants happy to get business.

Which explain the difference of experience between Parisians and tourists: the latter are (rightfully) shocked by prices and service in the shitty tourist trap on rue de Rivoli or Montmartre, which absolutely does not reflect the experience of the former in the little Georgian restaurant or their favorite bistro three streets down their flat.

[AdrianB1]

Travelling to Paris for ~ 15 years as I have some family there, I never, ever used a bus: either RER, regular subway or walking (I walked 10+ km several times). I found the experience of bus tickets for tourists a hit or miss across Europe, either big cities not friendly with tourists (some: especially inaccessible with people not speaking the local language, mostly in Germany) or positively surprised when things were a lot simpler than I thought in unexpected places. For public transportation, this lack of consistency is bad.

[ThePowerOfFuet]

>After 10 minutes of googling about cards for tourists I have learned that you can only get a card if you live in Paris, confirm your address, and even then it takes 2-3 weeks to get one. There is a card you can get as a tourist, but it's only useful for expensive day passes, not for taking 1-2 euro trips.

They failed you, because such a card exists and is called the Navigo Easy, costs €2, and you can load individual trips on it. Unfortunately the machines don't sell the cards yet, so you have to talk to a human.

[jfim]

It's almost as if the RATP doesn't want tourists to use it though. From their website on the pass (https://www.ratp.fr/en/titres-et-tarifs/passe-navigo-easy)

> Do you want to take trips on the metro, bus or tram? Do you want a rechargeable pass? The Navigo Easy pass is made for you!

> Ideal for : Les touristes et les clients voyageant occasionnellement

There's also a table further down the page that's only available in French that explains which fare combinations are allowed (ie. cannot load both a full fare and reduced fare on the same card). Although even if one reads French, it's not clear what the orange cell means, so maybe the RATP just hates all of its customers. :-)

[bagels]

It's in French, is that why you are saying they don't want tourists to use it?

Otherwise, it basically says: Ideal for tourists and occasional travellers.

[bombcar]

I think that's the gist - the table is confusing and complex even for a French speaker.

"Tourist" cards should always be "you can ride basically everything" and "more expensive than if you know what you're doing". I have no idea what a "day pass" on the Metro is, but tourists will gladly pay more for something they don't have to think about and works everywhere.

[secabeen]

I purchased these for my family on my last trip, and it took a little work; I had to go to the office in the train station, then ask, there was confusion with the Navigo vs the Navigo Easy. In the end, it worked, and the $2 cost of the card was covered by the discount on the 10-ride pack.

That said, the just-use-your-credit card system in London is way better.

[GekkePrutser]

The same is going on here in Barcelona. They have the new electronic ticket but you need to pay for it, then get it sent to your home and it's not anonymous like most of the paper ones were.

You can get one on your phone too but it still doesn't solve the anonymity problem. Even if you get it on the phone you need to submit photo ID first :( Still a royal pain for tourists too.

They also (next year) want to stop the super easy 1,10 euro per trip (any trip any mode) tariff. Which also makes everything easy because there's no need to do an exit scan. Besides the hassle that the paper tickets were (they become unreadable if you look at them wrong) I don't really see any positives to this new system.

Besides that it has taken many more years and millions to introduce than planned. And it's already been hacked before it went live because someone didn't change the admin/admin passwords on the website... Gotta love government operations.

[paganel]

> Even if you get it on the phone you need to submit photo ID first

Why do they need ID for city travel tickets? That's just crazy. Really crazy. Where will all this madness end? Why isn't anyone saying: "Hey, asking for ID data in order to travel by bus is pure China-like craziness!"?

[anigbrowl]

Discount/subsidies for locals

[huehehue]

That's a shame. I just paid for a T-casual with cash and it worked beautifully throughout the week despite becoming a crumpled mess by the end of my trip.

NYC is moving to a system called OMNY, where you can either hunt down a retailer with the cards or just use tap-to-pay. I suspect many casual riders will use the latter because of the low friction, but it's indeed not anonymous.

[julienb_sea]

NYC tap to pay is a beautiful system. Seamless with any mobile phone, and if you have an apple watch the integration is insane -- just put the watch near the reader and it knows it's a transit reader and just works, no need to even initiate payment.

[thisisjasononhn]

> Besides the hassle that the paper tickets were (they become unreadable if you look at them wrong)

Or the paper ticket is even slightly bent. Or bent in half. Or mildly wet. Or a corner is folded. Or sometimes it looks fine but just won't work. Or it works at one station but not another.

I say all that because each situation happened to me on my visit to Barcelona this summer :)

I also had a problem where I had to basically rebuy a new 10-trip ticket twice within a day of each other, because the first got folded in a bag, and the other I thought I misplaced (only to find it at the absolute bottom of a heavily packed shopping bag). Oh and the one day I tried to get my folded ticket replaced, the only station I passed through was closed early! How convenient :)

Basically, those paper tickets WERE a pain. But I don't like the new photo ID cards they're introducing either. Good luck I suppose...

[ThePowerOfFuet]

>They also (next year) want to stop the super easy 1,10 euro per trip (any trip any mode) tariff.

Do you have a source for that?

[curiousgal]

> only specific models, and no iPhones

More like only recent-ish Samsung phones. Complete shitshow.

[kioleanu]

Hey when all you have is a hammer…

[WastingMyTime89]

It’s supposedly going to be fixed next year.

It took ages to reach an agreement with Apple which was offering extortionate rates for allowing their customers to use the NFC chip in their phones in a classic Apple move.

[wheybags]

Me too, but I don't have a local bank account. You can't sign up for a Navigo Liberté (pay as you go card) without a local IBAN (which is illegal, there is an EU law that anyone accepting bank transfers needs to treat accounts from all EU member states equally). So I buy paper tickets. This is really dumb. Paper tickets work, just leave it alone.

[joeblubaugh]

Paris’s paper tickets work until you keep it in your pocket next to your phone and the strip demagnetizes. Happened to me twice before I figured out what was happening.

[BrandoElFollito]

Just for information: you can ask to have it replaced at any station that has human presence

[ghaff]

Welcome to public transport just about everywhere. It's fine if you're a local or a frequent enough traveler to one of the cities where you have an app and/or a contactless card.

A first-time visitor who is jet-lagged and may not speak the language? Sorry you're not our priority--even at the airport.

[Symbiote]

> where you have an app and/or a contactless card

London gets this (mostly) right, because there "contactless card" includes Visa/MasterCard/Amex/Maestro credit and debit cards, and smartphones with equivalent contactless payment. The local transport card (Oyster) is only needed for other fares (e.g. child-rate tickets) or season tickets of a month or longer.

Travel from Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Luton airports is included in this.

(The only thing they could improve is the signage at Heathrow. They promote the expensive Heathrow Express train, when many people would be better taking an Elizabeth Line train on the same rails — 15 minutes slower and ¼ the price.)

(One more thing, last month they seem to have introduced a £5-£7 cost to get an Oyster card, which seems needlessly extortionate for visitors that do need them. Years ago it was a small deposit, which you could get returned in cash at the machine.)

[1] https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets...

[AshamedCaptain]

> London gets this (mostly) right, because there "contactless card" includes Visa/MasterCard/Amex/Maestro credit and debit cards

Lyon and many other French cities do this already anyway.

I dislike it because it's about the opposite of anonymous.

[ghaff]

I noticed last time I was in London there seemed to be more choices; I already have an Oyster Card anyway.

Systems do seem to be getting more standardized in general although the user experience for a first time visitor to a city--especially if they haven't checked things out ahead of time--isn't necessarily great because they can't really depend on just tapping a credit card on a reader.

[_visgean]

is stansted included? I always buy ticket through traveline and I dont think you can get through the train gates with card payment..

> Passengers are not able to use Oyster cards or contactless payment cards on the Stansted Express services to Stansted Airport. It is advised that passengers book tickets in advance or, alternatively purchase tickets at the train station. By booking in advance you are able to save money on their journeys.

https://www.stanstedairport.com/getting-to-and-from/by-stans...

[Symbiote]

You are correct. I read "The addition of Luton Airport Parkway to stations accepting pay as you go means that four of London’s airports are now accessible by simply using contactless." [1]. The other is London City Airport, not Stansted.

1] https://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/pay-you-go-contactless-tak...

[ghaff]

>They promote the expensive Heathrow Express train

For that matter something like the Piccadilly Line is more convenient depending upon where you're going to.

I have an Oyster Card but there seem to be a lot of options these days.

[rippercushions]

More and more cities like Sydney and Singapore accept credit cards NFC for payment. Tap and go, zero setup required.

[wildrhythms]

Even NYC lets you tap a credit card at the turnstile. Get with the times

[floucky]

Automated machines distribute cards for a few months already. I was used to take tickets by 10, and got a card last time.

[ThePowerOfFuet]

The machines are being equipped with card dispensers; you can see them in modern machines when they are open for maintenance or money collection. They're just not ready yet.

[mfost]

I'm testing the beta version of their Android ticket software and it works pretty well (and not limited to Samsung phones). It should be available soon I think.