[ttymck]

I've never said this before but I'll say it now: "'ORMs are for people who don't know SQL' is usually said by people who have never written a complex application."

I agree that ORMs are dangerous and clumsy for a number of use cases, but the query-building aspect is indispensable in many scenarios. Unfortunately, the query builder is usually tightly coupled to the ORM, but _if you do know SQL_ then you can use the ORM sensibly and performantly.

[vladsanchez]

I sustain and refute your claim that I've not written complex apps. They just don't have to be complicated, which is what most ORMs bring, and has been my experience. Complex don't mean complicated.

[ttymck]

Agree to disagree then. I find ORMs to be enormously helpful more often than not, if not without perils, and I know SQL.

[yencabulator]

You can have a query builder without an ORM.