[ascendantlogic]

I wrote a lot of Java in the 2000's and the early 2010's. The verbosity of the language was always my #1 complaint. The amount of stuff I had to type vs the productivity of those lines was always out of whack. Maybe it's better now?

[ahtihn]

Requiring fewer lines for Hello World doesn't really change that though.

[dianeb]

Alas, the language is incredibly verbose in and of itself and the plethora of examples continue to be incredibly verbose. From _Java in a Nutshell_ to the latest documentation, the examples all tend to be of the form:

UnbelievablyLongClassName unbelievablyLongClassName = new UnbelievablyLongClassName(parameterName, anotherParameterName);

Given that nearly all existing code follows this pattern (yes, there is var which is only useful in some cases as opposed to C++'s auto keyword) Java has become hopelessly convoluted.

Before I get downvoted, you should keep on mind that I was an early adopter (1996) of "Java as a sane C++" and have been stunned by the verbosity of "modern" Java applications. Unless the standard libraries change (and the effect of that would be staggering) and the open source libraries all change, and every existing application code changed to use reasonable names, Java will always be overly verbose.

[chrisseaton]

> UnbelievablyLongClassName unbelievablyLongClassName = new UnbelievablyLongClassName(parameterName, anotherParameterName);

That's verbose, but how is it convoluted? It seems extremely plain and simple and linear to me? A local variable is set to a new instance of a class with a couple of parameters. What do you see as being convoluted here?

[ascendantlogic]

Individually the lines are verbose but are usually readable. But once you start talking about hundreds or thousands of lines across tens or hundreds of files the sheer volume of the text is what starts leading to convolution. What pushes it over the edge then are the endless abstractions, misdirections and enterprise patterns that may or may not make sense to solve the problem at hand but generally are "best practice" or at least were when lots of legacy code was first laid down 10-20 years ago. It becomes a giant headache very quickly.