[nirvana]

In several of the comments, people have asked why entrepreneurs might want to leave the USA, given the common perception that the USA is a great place to do a business. I'm making this comment in response to those questions as an example of an entrepreneur whose left the USA. My reasons for doing this are obviously going to be different than those who would choose not to, so don't get mad. I'm not trying to persuade you, just explaining.

I was born in the USA, and worked for startups for nearly 2 decades in the USA, but when it came time to do my own startup, I left the USA. There are many reasons for this, and further, when I come back to the USA, I'm reminded of some of the nice things we've given up.

The biggest reason we left is that the cost of living is high in the west coast of the USA, compared to most of the rest of the world. If we could travel around the world and actually save money while getting to do something we've always enjoyed doing, then that's great. Going to europe is more expensive than the USA, but not that much, well worth it. In fact, berlin was such cool city, that if germans were more supportive of the idea that we might want to stay there for an extended period we'd be working on residency permits.

But behind this reason is another one- The USA is going in the wrong direction. Pick whatever examples work best for you- SOPA, domain seizures, an increasingly baroque tax code, increasing regulations all over that, even though they don't yet effect small businesses much, would be a burden if we are at all successful, even dealing with the TSA when I want to fly, and the thought that my tax money is being used to kill afghani, iraqi, pakistani and other children.

When I was young, I was brought up to believe that the USA was great because it believed in human rights. That the bill of rights protected us from an out of control government. Over the years, I've seen those rights be violated, one by one, and the supreme court claim that it was "legal" in their rulings. I've come to believe that there is no effective restraint on the US government by the legal system, and I've been shocked to see, how rapidly these transgressions are accelerating.

For instance, I still can't wrap my mind around the fact that at ever airport adults and children have a choice between being photographed nude by government agents and being molested by same. This is a violation of state laws in probably all 50 states, yet no charges have been filed. Worse, while many americans protest, there has been no action. I take this as evidence that americans will put up with any rights violations. Many of them will get mad, but they have no method to resolve the situation. While Obama was president when these scanners were put in, only a couple of the people wanting to run against him want them out. And while Bush was president when the TSA was created and the PATRIOT act was passed, Obama has expanded both. Despite the majority of people opposing various bits of legislation (like the bank bailouts) they still get passed. So, I see no way for things to turn around until things get bad enough to make people really unformfortable.

Also, I've studied economics and been watching the economic situation. I've come to understand the real nature of the federal reserve and the fiat currency of the USA. The USA benefited greatly from Bretton Woods alls these decades, but a side effect of that is that the inflation that has existed in the dollar supply has been exported to other countries, giving americans an artificially better standard of living. This in itself is not bad, but it and our debtor economy are dependent on that money being kept out of the system by being locked up in vaults and pocketbooks and accounts of foreigners who want it because they think the dollar is a strong currency. Given the fact that our economy is faltering, but more importantly our government is spending like crazy (obama is worse than bush who was worse than clinton who was worse than bush who was worse than the very bad reagan who was worse than carter, it just goes on...) eventually they are going to be inflating so fast that the dollar loses its reserve status, and at that point, it won't matter that the US government is inflating because people will start dumping their dollars. We'll start seeing the effect of all those previous years inflation that was exported realized in the dollars in a rather short time. This is not a black swan event, it happens regularly, just not often enough that people remember its possible. But because of bretton woods, it will be much worse for the usa than, say, argentina.

Its pretty much impossible to do business in the USA and not be tied up in the dollar economy.

Meanwhile, because I have been a traveller, I've been to other countries and seen how in some ways at least many of them are better than the USA. Chile for instance, has a culture that is more instinctively capitalist. New Zealand, while its more socialist on the surface has a much less corrupt government. So the question becomes, of all these countries, which provides the best protections of the rights I care most about and is also going in the right direction? I've not yet decided, I'm still traveling.

There's a lot to commend the USA. One surprising thing is how convenient having amazon and walmart is. Especially compared to europe. You can just order anything you want from amazon or go to a walmart and buy most anything you want. In europe, the retail stores are generally very tiny, and with the exception of an astounding chain of 3 story electronics shops we found in berlin, its often very hard to find obscure things. And when you do, of course, the prices are often almost doublet the USA due to tariffs and on top of that you've got %20 VAT.

One downside of running a startup this way is that traveling involves spending a fair bit of time on the traveling part. This gets in the way of the startup part, and it is also a bit disruptive. Each time we go to the next country we have a bit of time figuring out where the grocery store is, arranging the apartment to suit our needs, etc. We're staying in AirBnB places almost exclusively and AirBnB has totally solved a lot of the hassles of having to find apartments. But we're going to try staying linger- getting permits to stay a year or so in each country.

Finally, its a hell of a lot of fun to run a startup this way.

So, I'm sure most on hacker news disagree with at least something I've said, and this post is by its nature political because it is a questions whose answers, for me, are politically motivated. I'm not looking for a debate. If you disagree with my perspective on any of these things, that's fine, but I took a long time to reach them, and a lot of consideration, and there's really not much point in trying to persuade me (nor am I trying to pursuade you. I'm just answering the question.)

I am up for answering followup questions if anyone's concerned about mechanics etc.

[edelweiss]

It made sense for Entrepreneurial US Citizens to leave the U.S. since 2003 (when I moved my family of 5 to Vienna Austria), so it's already too late (not so easy to renounce US Citizenship now, new draconian financial reporting laws for expats and new laws which prevent taking assets out of the country kick in 2013).

In 2013 I will renounce my US Citizenship to gain Austrian Citizenship. I have thought long and hard about this. I am proud of the principles the US was founded on, which are trampled on each and every day in Congress, by the President, and in the Supreme Court. I am proud of those who sacrificed for the good of our country, who sacrificed to preserve those rights and to bestow them on me upon my birth. Those sacrifices are dishonored and spit upon daily by our politicians, and their kleptocrat corporate owners.

I will always love the United States, and the majority of it's honorable, kind, and caring people. However I have no love of this totalitarian nightmare which is our government.

Our government is illegitimate, despicable, and dishonorable.

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such government and provide new guards for their future security."

People don't talk that way anymore.

Beautiful, huh?

- No idea what you said. - It means, if there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action. "

National Treasure - 2004

"Because you are the president of USA, sir. Whether it is to your character ... Of the oath that you have taken To the Constitution to protect. Of the weight of history That rests on your shoulders. I believe you Are an honorable man, sir.

Gates, that sort of thing People do not believe anymore.

They want to believe in it."

National Treasure Book of Secrets - 2007

Getting a VISA in Austria is straightforward, and Vienna is the best city in the world for quality of life (Mercer 2009, 2010, 2011).

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/11/30/vienna-austria-named-wor...

Rules for Migrating to Austria Red-White-Red VISA

http://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/permanent....

[davidw]

> Pick whatever examples work best for you

We have a black guy as president. That simply would not have happened even 20 years ago. At protests, even relatively minor nastiness by police is filmed and broadcast immediately. Look up what the police did in some places in the 60ies as a comparison. We have the internet to get information out about various things.

It's easy to see and complain about the bad things, and right to do so, or else they wouldn't improve. It's also worth considering though, that things have improved in many ways.

> Chile for instance, has a culture that is more instinctively capitalist.

I don't know much about Chile, but didn't they vote in a guy who was more or less a communist in the 70ies? Who was then murdered, along with many people, by a brutal dictator, who put in place many capitalist institutions? Which do turn out to work better than the alternative in many cases, so they've been kept? I don't know what the average 'man on the street's view of the whole thing is though. Is it possible the capitalism was kind of foisted on the country and has stuck because it more or less works, but that it's not all that ingrained into the culture? I have no idea, honestly, but do think the Startup Chile thing is pretty cool even if they didn't accept me.

[duopixel]

It's worth mentioning that the CIA did everything they could to prevent that "communist guy" from being elected and govern peacefully, and once his government was overthrown it offered all its support to that "brutal dictator", by their own admittance https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/chile/....

[rdouble]

Maybe everyone's a capitalist there out of residual cultural fear of being targeted by a caravan of death for having an alternative viewpoint.

[davidw]

They actually have seemed to pick fairly sensible, middle of the road type of people after having ditched Pinochet, rather than lurching to the other extreme.

It seems like a country that's doing pretty well, but I honestly have no idea what things are like 'on the ground'.

[rdouble]

My comment was tongue in cheek. However, I did think the GP's comment about Chile being "instinctively capitalist" was a bit ridiculous considering the country's history.

[edelweiss]

It made sense for entrepreneurs to leave the U.S. since 2003 (when I moved my family of 5 to Vienna Austria), so it's already too late (not so easy to renounce US Citizenship now, new draconian financial reporting laws for expats and new laws which prevent taking assets out of the country kick in 2013). In 2013 I will renounce my US Citizenship to gain Austrian Citizenship. I have thought long and hard about this. I am proud of the principles the US was founded on, which are trampled on each and every day in Congress, by the President, and in the Supreme Court. I am proud of those who sacrificed for the good of our country, who sacrificed to preserve those rights and to bestow them on me upon my birth. Those sacrifices are dishonored and spit upon daily by our politicians, and their kleptocrat corporate owners. I will always love the United States, and the majority of it's honorable, kind, and caring people. However I have no love of this totalitarian nightmare which is our government. Our government is illegitimate, despicable, and dishonorable. "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such government and provide new guards for their future security." People don't talk that way anymore. Beautiful, huh? - No idea what you said. - It means, if there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action. " National Treasure - 2004 "Because you are the president of USA, sir. Whether it is to your character ... Of the oath that you have taken To the Constitution to protect. Of the weight of history That rests on your shoulders. I believe you Are an honorable man, sir. Gates, that sort of thing People do not believe anymore. They want to believe in it." National Treasure Book of Secrets - 2007 Getting a VISA in Austria is straightforward, and Vienna is the best city in the world for quality of life (Mercer 2009, 2010, 2011).

Rules for Migrating to Austria Red-White-Red VISA http://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/permanent....

[acabal]

I completely agree with everything you've said, and that's why I'm doing the same thing. My girlfriend is German so I was thinking of trying for a residency permit there next year. You mentioned the government wasn't supportive; do you have any anecdotes on the difficulty (or otherwise) of getting a short-term German residency permit?

[naner]

Here's an anecdote from a HN'er trying to start a business in Germany:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3224374

[acabal]

Thanks for the link. I'm not trying to start a business though, I've happily self-employed with my own website for a few years now. (Though not earning the 60,000 euros suggested by that link.) I'm mainly just looking for a residency permit... i.e., I'm not going to work in Germany, I just don't want immigration getting angry when I try to leave ~12 months later.

[nirvana]

The netherlands and america have a treaty called the Ducth American Friendship Treaty. Under it, you can get residency in the Netherlands by putting something like 10-12k Euros into a bank (or starting a business with that much value, you'd need a lawyer to navigate the details.) At any rate, as an american citizen you have a sort of inroads to getting residency in the Netherlands. Under this treaty, so long as you maintain that business in the netherlands you can be a resident (and you can work towards citizenship if you were so inclined.)

As a resident of the netherlands, you can live and work in germany visa free because it is part of the free trade zone. I am pretty sure this is the case, but again, I'm not a lawyer and haven't run this idea by a lawyer.

But that's one option that might work for you.

If you'd like to keep in contact with me, I'm interested in corresponding with people doing these kinds of global startup adventures because there's always tips we can share with each other. (Email and twitter in my profile.)

[waqf]

Hmm, does this work the other way too? Can any EU citizen claim residency in the Netherlands, then use this to get U.S. residency for a small deposit?

If not, isn't this a somewhat unequal treaty?

[kevinqualters]

"Also, I've studied economics and been watching the economic situation. I've come to understand the real nature of the federal reserve and the fiat currency of the USA. The USA benefited greatly from Bretton Woods alls these decades, but a side effect of that is that the inflation that has existed in the dollar supply has been exported to other countries, giving americans an artificially better standard of living. This in itself is not bad, but it and our debtor economy are dependent on that money being kept out of the system by being locked up in vaults and pocketbooks and accounts of foreigners who want it because they think the dollar is a strong currency. Given the fact that our economy is faltering, but more importantly our government is spending like crazy (obama is worse than bush who was worse than clinton who was worse than bush who was worse than the very bad reagan who was worse than carter, it just goes on...) eventually they are going to be inflating so fast that the dollar loses its reserve status, and at that point, it won't matter that the US government is inflating because people will start dumping their dollars. We'll start seeing the effect of all those previous years inflation that was exported realized in the dollars in a rather short time. This is not a black swan event, it happens regularly, just not often enough that people remember its possible. But because of bretton woods, it will be much worse for the usa than, say, argentina."

This entire paragraph is horseshit and is what happens when your knowledge of economics comes from reading random shit on the internet. I'd start to tell you why you are wrong but it's so far from the truth it's "not even wrong."

[ftwinnovations]

Sorry kevinqualters but it sounds like you need to spend some time researching what he brought up before you call it horseshit. You had no specific examples why it's wrong because, well, obviously you don't know what actually is right.

But trust me, like you, I sure would prefer he were wrong...

[henrikschroder]

Where are you principally doing business?

[nirvana]

That sure looks like a straight forward question, but it actually isn't. Business is an abstraction. We do the work we need to do wherever we are, but the business lives elsewhere, while our primary market is global, such that one of the countries with our largest sales (prior to recent pivot) is a country we've never visited.

[paulhauggis]

okay, where do you pay your taxes? because this is all that really matters in terms of business.

[mdda]

I guess : The company pays tax wherever it is domiciled - and that's a matter of corporate tax rates, money transfer restrictions, and other red tape.

On a personal basis, it makes a huge difference whether one is a US citizen (where you have to pay the USA on the first $80k of your worldwide income, whether you are in the US or elsewhere) or not (most countries only tax you when you are tax resident).

For those not caught in the worldwide income trap, most countries only clock you in as a tax resident if you're there for more than 180 days in a year. If one can happily move on every 5 months (eg: Summer in France, 'Winter' in Chile, plus a couple of spare month's vacation) - then one can live tax-free legally...

[billpaetzke]

Are you still a US citizen? If not, where? Is your startup registered in the US (i.e. a Delaware LLC)? If not, where?

What country/ies are appealing to you to switch citizenship and registration to, if any, for economical and legal reasons?