[Longhanks]

* some of the then-elected governments

There was a national referendum before the Lisbon treaties that was declined by the Netherlands and France, which in turn "watered down" the EU constitution into the Lisbon treaties which are now in use, which were then ratified without any national votes.

As the German politician Martin Scholz once said, if the EU were to apply for an EU membership, it would get declined because of a lack of a democratic foundation.

[jltsiren]

> As the German politician Martin Scholz once said, if the EU were to apply for an EU membership, it would get declined because of a lack of a democratic foundation.

That's the way it should be.

In a democratic state, the state itself is sovereign, while the citizens are not. The rights of the citizens depend on the constitution, which can be changed according to a democratic process. The EU is a union of sovereign states. Due to that sovereignty, decision-making in the EU cannot be fully democratic, as that would violate the sovereign rights of the member states.

[Longhanks]

Well, since I live in Switzerland, I am happy to disagree. Swiss people vote on many things multiple times per year and consider this a fundamental right and this the way it should be.

[jltsiren]

A sufficient majority of citizens can change the constitution and take that right away from you. Because you live in a democratic state, you do not have sovereign rights.

[MichaelCollins]

Just the same; sufficient number of states can take those 'sovereign rights' away from a country. In the context of a discussion about Germany, shouldn't this be obvious?

[jltsiren]

There are many levels of government from local to multinational. At most one of those levels can be sovereign, and democracy makes most sense on that level. On other levels, some degree of democracy is possible, but it's always subject to the consent of the sovereign state.

EU member states have voluntarily agreed that in some situations, EU law takes priority over national law. But because the member states are sovereign, it's up to them to decide how to proceed when EU and national laws are in conflict. The EU has only limited means to sanction member states that breach their laws. It cannot arrest and prosecute German lawmakers. It can't declare German laws invalid, except to the extent German institutions voluntarily follow EU rulings. It can't forcibly rewrite German laws. And in extreme situations, it can't declare Germany's Constitution unconstitutional and invalid, and it can't forcibly rewrite it.

[sveme]

The difference is between direct and representative democracy, not of democracy itself.