[FooHentai]

I'm with Carlsen on this. If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good. That we have this bizarre attitude of permissiveness and time salvation around cheaters in competition is frankly bizarre. What other argument is there than to refuse to engage. It is not difficult to simply never cheat, in the same way that it is not difficult to simply never murder anyone.

Honestly, bravo. He's at the point in his career that he really doesn't need to prove anything, and as such is uniquely positioned to make this kind of statement with at least a vague chance that it will be heeded.

[WastingMyTime89]

> I'm with Carlsen on this. If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good.

That’s absolutely not the rule and neither you nor Carlsen get to decide that.

There is no permissiveness here. Hans has played according to the rule of the tournament. There is no evidence of cheating. That’s it.

Unless you have proof of what you are advancing, you are just bullying a teenager. The conduct of the chess community has a whole has been nothing short of shameful in this instance.

[KingMob]

He's admitted to cheating in the past. The Bayesian priors for him currently cheating are not the same as for other people.

[WastingMyTime89]

Sorry but that’s garbage. You either have evidence or you don’t. You can’t just say: once guilty always guilty and be fine with that.

I find the general holier-than-thou self-righteous attitude expressed by most armchair commenters extremely off putting.

[Luc]

> holier-than-thou self-righteous attitude

That's what I see in your comments, haha.

Let the man protest. It appears to be quite effective. There is a long history of positive change coming from quiet, stubborn, non-violent protest outside the rules.

[NotYourLawyer]

The fact that he cheated before is evidence. It’s not proof, but it’s absolutely evidence.

[Aeolun]

> You can’t just say: once guilty always guilty and be fine with that.

You absolutely can. Billions of people do it every single day for less reason.

> I find the general holier-than-thou self-righteous attitude expressed by most armchair commenters extremely off putting.

I find the crowd chanting evidence, evidence, evidence off putting.

[LightG]

I suggest cavity inspections before all matches from now on.

[moonchrome]

The Hansen inspection

[Beltalowda]

> He's admitted to cheating in the past.

From what I can find: "he did admit that he had cheated in the past – first as a 12-year-old when a friend gave him some help in an online tournament and then as a 16-year-old playing unrated games while he was streaming."

A 12-year old cheating in a tournament! We cannot ever trust this man!

[Loughla]

For context at high levels of play.

Magnus Carlsen started playing at around age 5. Was in his first tournament at 8. Was winning and establishing a career in his teens. Was grand master in his early 20's.

So, cheating at 12 and 16 could equate to cheating now. That's only 3 or 7 years ago. Hans is 19.

[Beltalowda]

That doesn't change that a 12-year old is still a 12-year old though, and that a mere "7 years" (12 to 19) is a huge difference in terms of personal development. A 12-year olds brain is still developing.

The cheating when he was 16 was unrated, so that's less severe, but the same argument applies here really; how many 100% responsible 16 year olds do you know?

Should there be some consequences? Maybe? But people further upthread here are argueing for life-time bans, which seem ridiculously draconic for the actions of a teenager who can't buy alcohol or cigarettes, is below the age of consent for sexual activities, etc. in in many jurisdictions.

In my early teens I would shoplift for the fun of it and did some other things I'm not especially proud of today. That's been 30 years ago and I haven't stolen anything in just as many years (since I was 14 or 15).

I'm very uncomfortable writing off an entire person over actions they did as a teenager.

[JetSetIlly]

Thank-you for pointing this out. The defence that Niemann was "only a minor" when he engaged in his admitted cheating has always sat uncomfortably with me. As you say, Chess is game played at very high standards by children as well as adults. Cheating in that context is highly immoral in my view.

[Beltalowda]

I never said it's not immoral, but we're also talking about what are essentially children, which does not make it permissible, but I don't like judging adults (and 19 is only barely adult) over whatever they did as children/teens. There wouldn't be enough stones to cast if we started doing that.

[LegitShady]

chess.com disagrees, and says the Niemann's cheating is greater in both the amount and seriousness of cheating that has occured.

https://twitter.com/chesscom/status/1568010971616100352

>"Dear Chess Community,

>The last few days have been tumultuous for many in the chess community. At this time we have reached out to Hans Niemann to explain our decision to privately remove him from chess.com and our events. We have shared detailed evidence with him concerning our decision, including information that contradicts his statements regarding the amount and seriousness of his cheating on Chess.com. We have invited Hans to provide an explanation and response with the hope of finding a resolution where Hans can again participate on Chess.com. We want nothing more than to see the best chess players in the world succeed in the greatest events. We will always act to protect the integrity of the game that we all love."

Hans Niemann is not being honest.

[Beltalowda]

I can't really determine who is right on that; my response was intended just for "he's admitted to cheating in the past." If the chess.com allegations turn out to be true then it would of course be a different matter entirely.

[LegitShady]

nobody can determine who is right because they haven't made the allegations specific, but as a professional chess player if they say his cheating goes beyond what he's claimed, and they have evidence of it, he could sue them for defamation if it wasn't true. I suspect chess.com has the receipts.

[sebzim4500]

Fair enough but those priors should also be updated by a lot of evidence showing that he probably isn't cheating over the board:

* His blitz/rapid ratings went up just as much as his classical ratings. Cheating in OTB blitz is much harder, so you would expect his blitz rating to stay roughly the same if his recent rise was due to cheating.

* Ken Regan is generally the most trusted authority of cheating detection (you can find his papers online, his methodology is rigorous), and he says there is no evidence of Hans cheating OTB.

* AFAIK no strong player has described the game between Hans and Carlsen as suspicious. Even the (increasingly rare) ones that are fully on Magnus' side.

[pixelpoet]

Bayesian priors aren't really known for their rigour.

[Nokinside]

> That’s absolutely not the rule and neither you nor Carlsen get to decide that.

That should be the rule.

Everyone can help to make this new norm by refusing to play against players who have cheated. Carlsen is helping to make it the rule.

[FooHentai]

Does any of what you just said not also apply to Carlsen?

[bayindirh]

> There is no permissiveness here.

Shall we permissive against people who cheated, or who admitted to have cheated?

If this is permissible, or even acceptable why we have a word for this?

Note: Consider this as a meta question. This is not related to Hans or Magnus, but to humans at large, incl. me and you.

[Tenoke]

The only confirmed cheating we know is online, in a no prize money setting at ages 12 and 16. This is hardly sufficent for banning him for life in FIDE OTB Tournaments as an adult if they don't have other evidence. It's like banning a sports player for life for cheating in high school games or an academic for cheating in their math test as a kid.

[xalco]

So... From now on, all teenagers between 12 and 16 should be allowed to cheat in online no prize money settings...

[jpgvm]

A good counter-example is s1mple from the Counterstrike: Global Offensive scene. He was known to have cheated when he was a teenager but went on a redemption arc that has seen him become not only the statistically best player to ever play the game but also one of its most mature and respected players. All the while under intense scrutiny for cheating because of his history.

I don't think one and out forever is really the way to deal with cheating in teenagers, they are yet to fully understand the consequences of their actions or how to deal with pressure/emotions - especially in online settings when the temptation is higher and the fallout less obvious.

[kevinmchugh]

It probably is also not a standard that can be practically upheld in an online setting. In both of these cases as I understand them, the cheater did so on their main account. If they'd created a new account to cheat on, would people have known?

[jpgvm]

Unless they have good OpSec then yes. Valve issues VAC bans for associated accounts when they believe they are linked.

[fileeditview]

I am absolutely not decided on the issue but you should always remember that the "guy" caught cheating was 12 and 16 when it happened.. I mean he was a kid. Kids do stupid things. So we should not overrate what happened in the past.

[willsmith72]

The "kid" is only 19. If this were 10 years ago I would get your point, but "kids do stupid things" doesn't apply when he already admitted to doing it only 3 years ago as a 16 year old.

[Andrew_nenakhov]

you are comparing a no-stakes online blitz games to performance in professional over the board tournaments.

[linkdd]

> If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good

Yeah, justice!

If you steal something once in your life, straight to jail, for good. If you have a speeding ticket, no more driver license for the rest of your life.

After all, people don't change, any mistake in life should be fatal and destroy your entire future.

</sarcasm>

[manojlds]

Great comparisons. Lance Armstrong has not been allowed to cycle to the grocery store a well

[Nokinside]

In some areas of life the rule is more strict. Even a lowlife should be allowed to seek jobs etc.

But lowlife should not be allowed in professional chess, and professional chess is not place for second changes.

[dagw]

professional chess is not place for second changes.

To you hold this view for all competitive endeavours or just chess? If you cheated in a high school basketball game, should you be barred from ever playing professional basketball.

[linkdd]

> lowlife

Get down from your ivory tower...

[stonogo]

Chess is a game.

[Scarblac]

But online blitz chess when you're 16 is not "part of a professional competitive career".

[6nf]

Chess.com put out a statement refuting Hans' claims that he only cheated twice and Hans has not responded yet.

[Ekaros]

Then again I would put less than zero credibility to entity that has financial investment on the accuser in this case. Ofc, they will tow that line.

[LeChuck]

You're saying Hans only cheated twice, and chess.com is falsy accusing him of cheating more often than that because they're working on a takeover of Magnus' company?

That's straying pretty far into conspiracy theory territory.

[Ekaros]

I think they were probably pressured by Magnus who out of malice after losing a game is targeting promising player... Which I think is entirely reasonable reading of situation after seeing actions take by a player.

[Rallen89]

Chess.com ( magnus carlsons sponser) put out a statement refuting Hans' claims that he only cheated twice and Hans has not responded yet.(and chess. com have yet to show any evidence of said cheating)

[vintermann]

It can be. Being professional doesn't mean being good, it means doing something for money, and there is money at stake in some online blitz tournaments.

One important question is whether Niemann has cheated in tournaments with prizes or "only" in ladder-type games (he's only admitted to the latter as I understand)

[perihelions]

It's professional either way, since he used his Chess.com profile for his Twitch streaming.

[Andrew_nenakhov]

> If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good.

No, you shouldn't. People make mistakes, especially children. It is simply immoral to close any path to redemption for them. Also, anti-cheating measures on second-rate chess site chess.com are known to produce a lot of false positives. Niemann was never caught cheating in over the board games, so people trying to kill his career because of Carlsen's unspoken allegations should be ashamed of themselves.