[wizofaus]

What if you believe standards of living can be improved by giving up some of the luxuries we currently take for granted due to historically cheap fossil fuel based energy? E.g. I have no doubt my physical and mental health has vastly improved since deciding 15 years ago I didn't need to own a car and hence forced myself to minimise the use of such. Likewise significantly reducing meat consumption has made my diet more interesting and hopefully healthier etc., and investing in improving the energy efficiency of my house and dressing more appropriately has made it more comfortable to live in, with no need to have artificially hot or cold air constantly blowing into it throughout the year. I don't doubt many people would see those choices as a drop in their standard of living though.

[prottog]

I'm glad that you were able to improve your life, and I agree with you that the availability of modern luxuries are difficult to reconcile with a healthy, happy life.

But I posit that you are able to enjoy a car-less life due to the existence of fossil fuel-burning elsewhere: the public transportation you presumably ride, the groceries that are delivered to the store presumably within walking distance from where you live, the construction of your residence and all commercial buildings near you, the massive industrial production at scale that allows you to trade a smaller amount of your time for more goods and services. All of those things are, as you point out, built on the back of cheap energy. It would be downright immoral to deny that same opportunity to the people of the developing world.

And objectively speaking, having the capacity to do something is better than not having it. Whether you eat meat or not, it is objectively better for the common folk to be able to afford it; whether you own a car or not, it is objectively better to have the ability to move people and goods across long distances at an affordable price; whether you artificially cool and heat your home or not, it is objectively better for people to be able to live in comfort in places they otherwise may not be able to. Privation may end up being better for your health, both mental and physical, but only if it arises out of choice.

[ryukafalz]

> And objectively speaking, having the capacity to do something is better than not having it.

I’m not so sure I would universalize this. Up to a point sure, but there’s certainly a point at which having the capacity to do something quickly or easily can be detrimental. Some examples:

- We have a ton of unhealthy, nutrient-poor, high-calorie foods practically at arm’s reach in the US. Not all of us have the self-control to avoid grabbing them in the supermarket. Myself included! I certainly wish I didn’t have quite so many unhealthy options nearby; I’d probably be healthier if I didn’t.

- Being able to easily move people long distances (in particular via cars, which are horrifically space-inefficient) has led to people moving far away from population centers and infrastructure that requires cars for transportation. The presence of convenient cars as an option in a sense removes choices, because the infrastructure required to sustain them makes other forms of transportation impractical. I would gladly trade the capacity to move quickly through my city in a car for the ability to safely bike around it.

[nicoburns]

> All of those things are, as you point out, built on the back of cheap energy

Well yes, but much, much less of it than if everyone drives everywhere.

> And objectively speaking, having the capacity to do something is better than not having it.

All else being equal, then sure. But all else is not equal. There's a significant cost to producing all of that energy. And it is not likely to be feasible to sustain the entire world at US (or even European) levels of energy usage anytime soon. As such, it's quite reasonable to start having a conversation about what high-energy usage activities we might be able to cut out without having too significant an impact on quality of life. Things like reducing meat consumption (not necessarily cutting it out entirely), reducing car usage, and cutting down on air travel, etc are obvious candidates for this.

[wizofaus]

Actually I hardly ever use public transport. And I didn't suggest my existence was car-less, just far far less car dependent than it used to be. Nobody's suggesting we're going to get to a zero-net-emissions world just by these sorts of personal choices, but I think more could be done to promote that there are benefits to be had even if some of them seem like giving up on things we enjoy.