[latchkey]

One would think, but how do you go from source control to deployment on the production server though? If they were editing files on the server directly, there could be a whole mess of symlinks and whatever else on there. Even worse, how do you even test things to see if you break anything?

It is a can of worms.

[tharkun__]

Just start somewhere. These guys are making changes, actual functional changes and bug fixes in that environment meaning they already have all the problems you imagine are going to get in the way of fixing this mess. So stop fretting and just start small with one tiny thing. It doesn't really matter with what. You don't even need automated tests necessarily. It's a small simple flow that needs 10 minutes to run the same test steps manually for? Write them down and do it manually, I don't care. Just Do it.

Been there, done that. Slightly differently where they had a test server and prod server. So already better except one day I made a change and copied to prod. Yes it was manual. Just scp the files over to prod. And stuff broke. Turned out someone had fixed a bug directly in prod but never made the change on the test server.

First thing I did was to introduce version control and create a script to do make deployment automatic meaning it was just a version control update on Prod (also scripting languages here). Magically we never had an issue with bugs reappearing after that.

Pretty simple change and you can go from there.

The above code base was over 20 years old and made use of various different scripting languages and technologies including some of the business logic being in stored procedures. Zero test coverage anywhere. You just 'hide' small incremental changes to make things better in everything you do. Gotta touch this part because they want a change? Well it could break anyhow so make it better and if it breaks, it breaks and you fix it. It needs judgment though. Don't rewrite an entire module when the ask was adding a field somewhere. Make it proportional to the change you need to make and sometimes it's not going to be worth it to make something better. Just leave it.

[JoeAltmaier]

Not sure the little hammer will fix much. And making folks use a method in new code pisses them off. "You say important I do this your way this time, even though there are 1000 examples of doing it the other way. I feel persecuted and your way is pointless, because it doesn't fix everything anyway. And its slowing me down and making me look bad."

Not rational but folks don't have to explain their feelings. You will be hated.

[tharkun__]

The little hammer definitely fixes. It does it in the same way as water cut the grand canyon. The beauty is that it works over time.

Now as for how to get the other devs on board, I agree with you that you can't just barge in and tell them everything they are doing is wrong etc. I never said to do that and I'm replying to a specific comment in the thread not the original Ask HN.

I.e. when I write about what I've done in the past, I got buyin from my boss and my colleagues on what I was going to do. But I didn't just sit there and kept doing what they had done over the past years. I changed lots of other little things too in the same manner.

So if we do want to talk about the original Ask HN and how to get the existing employees not to hate you, you can start by letting them tell you about what they think the problems are. What are their pain points. They might just not know what to do about them but actually see them as problems too. Maybe they've tried things already but failed or got shot down by others in the company. Maybe they did try to introduce version control but their non tech boss shot them down.

Of course it may not work out. Some people really are just stupid and won't listen even if you try to help them and make them part of the solution.

[JoeAltmaier]

Startups have runway and can die when big-company processes forced up on them. It can sink them.

[tharkun__]

I'm not sure where you're pulling that from. There's no mention of startup here. Neither in the original (actually the opposite I'd say, 12 years and just a business unit).

None of what I said is a big-company process in any way. If in your book using source control is a big company process that will sink a startup then be my guest and I will just hope we never have to work together. Source control is a no-brainer that I even use just for myself, have used in teams of two and teams dozens to hundres. The amount of process around is what scale with the kind of company. Source control is useful by itself in every single size of company.

[JoeAltmaier]

Source control is necessary and simple, yes.

Code review, coding standards, required tests for everything, multiple stages of deployment - are not simple and can stall development. Done wrong they can sink a company.

It's easy to read the worst possible construction on what other people write here. It's never a good idea.

Btw I worked at a startup for 8 years. It was still a startup, depending on new investment to meet the monthly. In any case the described dev group was behaving in a way that used to be typical of startups. And even business units in larger organizations have runway.

[throwaway002ha]

Yeah, lot of worms...and if while refactoring things break. You are on the hook for scanning through that complex monster at 3 am and finding the issue and fixing it for no additional pay in most cases.

[ajgrover]

They can literally copy the whole directory from their local machine to production as a first step for all I care.

How do they test things on production? If there’s a bug how do they revert to the previous version? There are way more issues without source control than with.

[samus]

Doesn't Git support symlinks? Empty directories could be trouble though. One would have to put a .GITKEEP into every directory before checkin, and a step at deployment time to remove them again.