[arinlen]

> * But 2,000 years ago the Europeans were were not "civilised" in the sense that we think of.*

That really depends on what's your definition of "Europeans" and "civilized". The Catholic church exists for around 2 thousand years,is still alive and well, has its capital in Italy, and has defined western society for centuries.

[morelisp]

> The Catholic church exists for around 2 thousand years

And even by the most forgiving measure, took three centuries to become anything you might historically call "European".