[inphovore]

> Agile Manifesto states: The most efficient and effective method of conveying information to and within a development team is face-to-face conversation.

I refute this claim explicitly.

Written communications which are competently complete are superior to face to face in that memory and real time interpretation fail in comparison to the availability of objectively empirical reference.

The operating imperative is “complete”, and that all sides are “competently” literate.

[necovek]

> The operating imperative is “complete”, and that all sides are “competently” literate.

That's completely false. There are so many ways to misinterpret any communication.

I've so far learned that it's not even sufficient to be "completely" precise: people will "read between the lines" or simply glance over some words and not give weight to every word you may have chosen carefully. And that's normal in a human communication.

Sweet point to me is having a video call (in remote work) where you are taking notes together and agree on summary points (actions, decisions, any points of confusion and contention...) at the end.

[inphovore]

what you describe is the kind of incompetence that makes companies require degrees.

[necovek]

I don't see how that is in any way related?

Is this an example of "complete" writing that anyone "competently literate" should get? (I obviously fail, though maybe it's due to me having a degree)

[inphovore]

I don’t mean to sound like a troll, though if you’ve ever wondered why companies require degrees (which I don’t have yet I am above average literate and acknowledge their purpose), this is an example.

Those who are not “competent” readers, those who skim without obligation, those who lack established conventions for due diligence, they are troublesome and put the burden of minimum standards upon others.

A minimum degree is one way of establishing that such standards are met.

It may not be seen as relevant, though college level literacy is a standard which supports my point, and is undermined by your response.

I recommend taking responsibility for becoming a more diligent reader. You will benefit in many ways! Such as knowing and appreciating concise qualitative written requirements when you see them.

[necovek]

It's a bad example because it's incomplete and false. Even your elaboration is incomplete and false.

Job postings require degrees for a multitude of reasons other than introducing a common standard of communication (like proof of experience and background, certification and legal purposes)

I am a pretty dilligent reader. Does not help at all when everybody else is not a dilligent writer (and even those who are, they are not all the time).

You can either keep enforcing your point in your work (and social) environment and get frustrated, or accept that any form of communication requires repeating, examples and explaining in a different way, no matter how precise, concise and to the point you are. I've tried the former, and while it allows you to consider yourself smarter than everybody else, even that wanes after a while.

[intelVISA]

Prefer face to face for the latency but nothing beats immutable text. I kinda wish we had a popular hybrid between Zoom and email that had the same real-time expectations of a Zoom call with the benefits of the written word.

[inphovore]

I find real time makes people lazy and “take things for granted.”

How many times have you spent hours+ discussing a topic only to walk away and someone to say “oh, and one more thing…” only to finally get to the most important missing piece?

If you don’t expect others to be there “at the beck and call”, where your arse will be on the line for functional results, the pseudo-contract of explicit text is king!

[intelVISA]

We're social by nature.

I'm quite extroverted, face to face is risky for me I'll have a great time but miss the point if I'm not focused. Text removes the pleasantries and makes it business-first.

In the WFH/post-COVID era the main reason we (in engineering) still do face to face is to keep Agile grifters in a job. Would be terrible if people could just write what they wanted without a handler there to marshal.

[inphovore]

Your self awareness is appreciable.

I’m an introspective introvert, so don’t mind me!