[mpyne]

I think the point is that this isn't even KF's first go at the bomb threat thing. They've organized bomb threats, swatting, stalking vulnerable people at hotel rooms they've fled to, and worse things besides... and CF was always OK with. Always.

Until now.

When KF forced CF into a choice between protecting KF and protecting the victims of KF, CF chose KF, repeatedly.

Until now.

I'm glad CF has made the right choice, finally. But it clearly is not going to come from within, it's going to have to come from continued public awareness.

[philippejara]

Is there any proof, at all, of any swatting, being organized there? seems to be a question that eludes people.

[mpyne]

On the off-chance that this is a serious question and not gaslighting, start with this investigative journalist's thread: https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/15657972205318144...

This isn't recent either, the same reporter wrote on the site back in 2016: https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-trolls-cheer-trans-woman... (linked to from his Twitter thread).

I personally witnessed Near's live-tweeted descent into despair, culminating in their suicide (https://twitter.com/eevee/status/1409230358977998851?lang=en, https://twitter.com/near_koukai/status/1408986839743037448), all driven by KF.

As Near described it:

> But Kiwi Farms has made the harassment orders of magnitude worse. It's escalated from attacking me for being autistic, to attacking and doxing my friends, and trying to suicide bait another, just to get a reaction from me. I lost one of my best friends to this. I feel responsible

The behavior from just the Daily Beast story alone exceeds the harm caused by things like spamming, for which CloudFlare does ban email users. CloudFlare even runs a dedicated service that "crawls the Internet to stop phishing, Business Email Compromise (BEC), and email supply chain attacks at the earliest stages of the attack" [1].

One could only wonder how magical the Internet would be if CloudFlare could stop doxxing and account hijacking attacks at their earliest stages! Or... you know, at least not facilitate those attacks coming from within their own network. Because once this all crosses into harassment, stalking, doxxing and mass online bullying, it stops being about "speech" and starts being about facilitating and organizing criminal activity.

[1] https://www.cloudflare.com/products/zero-trust/email-securit...

[philippejara]

Ok, the investigative journalist's thread shows literally no proof or even evidence that kiwi farms was involved in the swatting, and the man with the note apparently posted it on /pol/(?) so not even kiwi farms was on that one. Neither of the other two links said anything about swatting.

I'm serious here, and genuinely trying to understand this underlying consensus that the one to blame for it is that website, but I just don't see it.

[mpyne]

If Keffals's own personal statement wasn't enough, this press article https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/swatted-toronto-man-caug... confirms her address and her father's were posted to Kiwifarms immediately prior to them being swatted.

Also, KF's admin directly mentioned that those on the site are using it for swatting (see https://www.sinseer.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/FaveAhKVE..., taken from a page posted by a different victim of KF-sourced harassment).

> the man with the note apparently posted it on /pol/(?) so not even kiwi farms was on that one

You mean the note literally saying "KiwiFarms all Troons"?? https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/15658039736716369...

Where they uploaded the first pic is hardly the issue, that KiwiFarms was organizing the online harassment campaign, including doxxing and swatting, is the issue.

And I couldn't help but notice you seemed to miss Near's tweet. Do you think they were unclear as to the source of their misery?

[philippejara]

No, her personal statement isn't enough, how could she know who did it? I'm sure in the heat of the moment someone going thru something like that would make assumptions and galvanize their position somewhat, it's completely understandable, but it's hardly evidence. Also the article doesn't say anything about the timeframe between her dox being posted and the incident.

The admin explicitly saying for people to stop "encouraging SWAT pranks" when speaking apparently(?) about two other elements is a bit closer but still quite weak, its an open forum from what I gathered so far surely there would be archives or some screenshot or something for said "pranks" towards the streamer being discussed right? especially if there is mention of him actually having to deal with the FBI in previous times.

I didn't overlook the tweets, I just couldn't find a single mention of swatting there.

[mlyle]

Yes, the evidence for a causal link in swatting is weaker, but evidence exists: discussion of swatting on the site, proximal links in time between people being doxxed and being swatted, etc.

And then we have screenshots of them figuring out her hotel room immediately after the swatting and engaging in harassment.

There's plenty of evidence for the site being used to coordinate unlawful harassment, and moderate evidence for them being used in highly dangerous harassment (e.g. swatting).

I think you're engaging in motivated reasoning. It's like if someone is known through extensive evidence to have assaulted others 100x, and there's moderate quality evidence they murdered someone-- arguing that they shouldn't be in jail because you personally don't find the murder evidence convincing enough. OK, um, we disagree about the murder thing, but what about all the other crimes?

[charcircuit]

You sidestepped the question. He asked for proof.

[krainboltgreene]

No one is answering you because it's obvious to even the most intermediate observer where this work is coming from.

The only reason anyone would give KF the benefit of the doubt is because they willfully are ignoring the activity going on in KF.

[betwixthewires]

What about to people like me, who have only ever heard of kiwi farms in passing, who don't really know anything substantial about any of this stuff and want to know more? Is it obvious to us? I'd like to see what everyone's talking about when they talk about this site, and if they're right, without actually going there. Can you help me out with that?

[krainboltgreene]

You want me to google news articles for you?

[betwixthewires]

No, just show me that what you're saying is true.

[krainboltgreene]

You've had a day and a half to google it.

[Cyberdog]

So the lack of evidence of wrongdoing is evidence of wrongdoing. Got it. That will certainly fly in court.

[krainboltgreene]

What court? What lack of evidence? Are you even on this earth right now?

[Cyberdog]

> What court?

A hypothetical court. I was just using it as an example of how the argument wouldn't hold muster in situations where it would really need to.

> What lack of evidence?

You posted this:

> No one is answering you because it's obvious to even the most intermediate observer where this work is coming from.

Again, "well, it's just obvious, dude" is not evidence. It's similar to a "god of the gaps" argument. If there's evidence Kiwi Farms did it, then Kiwi Farms did it, and if there's not evidence that Kiwi Farms did it, then Kiwi Farms still did it. That makes no sense.

[krainboltgreene]

> I was just using it as an example of how the argument wouldn't hold muster in situations where it would really need to.

I love when non-lawyers think they have any idea on what holds muster in the court of law.

[philippejara]

So there isn't then?

[e2le]

I do wish people would archive these pages to dissuade any doubt of wrongdoing.

[_dain_]

>They've organized bomb threats, swatting, stalking vulnerable people at hotel rooms they've fled to, and worse things besides

all of these things are against site rules, users who do them are banned (and mercilessly mocked).

the MTG swatting was so obviously a false flag, whoever did it said "YES I AM FROM KIWIFARMS AND THIS IS MY EXACT USERNAME", there was no actual discussion of a swatting attempt in the thread prior to that; nobody would just straight up admit who they were while committing a crime like that, especially after null repeatedly said he hands over people's info to law enforcement if they post illegal shit.

remember, the site is currently being DDoSed, which is a crime. people want it gone. so is it that impossible that the DDoSers would also do other illegal crap (like swatting) and blame it on KF to get their way?

[smcl]

Oh shit maybe we're all wrong then! Can I ask, then, what is the purpose of the site, if it's not to co-ordinate the harrassment of individuals by sharing their personal information?

[rejectfinite]

>what is the purpose of the site

It is a forum.

Should sites have to have a "purpose" and does this need to be vetted by some authority or the hosting provider?

What is the "purpose" of Twitter, Facebook, Telegram, Signal, 4chan or Discord?

>by sharing their personal information

I mostly saw public Twitter screenshots being reposted. I swear some people dont seem to understand that Twitter is public and not all DMs.

[smcl]

Ok have fun doing whatever it is you do that isn’t doxing on your forum when it’s back online (after the doxing and the threats took it offline) I guess.

[rejectfinite]

I dont have an account there... My HN is also not some driveby throwaway. You are putting words in my mouth now because you are out of arguments. This is a discussion forum.

[artificial]

Regarding the "purpose" argument. Authoritarianism is on the rise. What are you, some kind of wrongthinker? :)

[HideousKojima]

The purpose is to document the bizarre (and oftentimes outright creepy and/or illegal) behavior of the terminally online. You know, stuff like helping your friend sell his bathtub brewed hormones to minors without their parents finding out. Or running a Discord server called Catboy Ranch that has several minors on it, and you send them personalized collars that declare them your property. Just ordinary, innocent stuff that is no one else's business, clearly.

[bobsmooth]

To laugh at silly people online.

[HereIGoAgain]

What are you talking about exactly? As far as I've been able to find, they don't even have a history of harassment, let alone something illegal, not as a forum/community. As we saw with this "threat" here.. it was reported and deleted as soon as the mods saw it and the user perma banned.. Just like every other attempt by a "member" to post something illegal or interact with someone off site.