[peoplefromibiza]

> It’s quite clear that that is YOUR problem. It’s funny when people like yourself claim “I’m not X” while then clear laying the case.

if you don't see a problem in changing someone else's literature and culture (I am Italian and have read Pinocchio since I was a kid) than you probably don't know what respect for different cultures is.

I would never think of a movie were Kunta Kinte is Dutch and is portrait by Chris Hemsworth.

Would you?

Also: my favourite roman emperor is

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimius_Severus

He was black.

But in the small village in Tuscany of 1800 depicted in Pinocchio there were no black people, I can assure you.

[brobinson]

>He was black.

A quick search shows results saying his ancestors were all from northern Africa and the Middle East. He doesn't even look black in various busts/statues depicting him. He definitely looks north African. I'm pretty into Roman history, and this is the first time I've ever encountered someone suggesting there was a "black" (in the modern sense of the word) emperor.

[Amezarak]

Not commenting on Severus specifically, I’ve noticed that it seems really common in modern times for some reason for people to believe “white” means European, even though “white” people lived indigenously throughout North Africa, the Middle East, and Asia - including people with blue eyes or red/blonde hair.

Similarly, “African” is for some reason taken to exclusively mean “sub-Saharan” even though as you note most people would not identify most North African ethnic groups as black.

[rendall]

Don't worry, it's not you. People who are quick to call someone racist are nearly always struggling internally with their own racism. To their credit they feel quite a lot of shame about that, but until it's resolved they can be quite unpleasant.

[burnished]

Let me offer a different perspective: the complaint is inconsistent and solely focused on race, which makes it appear racist.

[rendall]

I think GP is not arguing his case well, especially not to Americans, who come with a preset cluster of expectations and arcane protocols to signal that we "get it".

And, sure, anti-Black racism might be his prime motivation. But, just assuming it's so, when someone questions American appropriation of his own culture's literary traditions is ... it's frankly imperialist.

"Americans agree: Italian who questions American depictions of Italian cultural traditions is just a bigot"

Have a bit more charity.

[mcphage]

The only part of the depiction he’s complaining about is race, though.

[rendall]

Dunno. Ask. Listen. Be humble.

Have a hypothesis and then do your best to falsify that. Give him all of the charity he needs to refute your guess that he's a bigot.

"So you say that there is a convention in Italian literature of depicting other-worldly beings as having freakishly white skin. Would you be ok with the Pinocchio reboot if the same African-descended actress portrayed the fairy, but were instead made up with freakishly white skin?"

If he doesn't refute your generous chances, then guess what? You found a bigot. Congratulations.

If everyone were more parsimonious about it, calling someone a racist or white supremacist or a Nazi would actually have some meaning again. At this point it's just coming to mean "This person disagrees with me and I don't like it".

Remember, these depictions are intended to be immersive. If some element reminds the watcher that they are watching a story, and they find it difficult to suspend their disbelief, they're not going to like it. That could mean an actor with clearly incorrect ancestry for the role.

For example, in the real world, a rural village of people whose ancestors have been in the same region for hundreds or thousands of years are going to look a lot alike. This is why Finns do not look like Khoisan. Everyone knows this. No one has a problem with this.

If your fantasy setting has human beings (or humanoid beings) living for generations together in a small rural village, and you just throw a bunch of different real-world ancestries in there, a Khoisan burgher and a Finnish tavern keeper, that's going to need some kind of explanation. Highlighting that as a problem isn't automagically racist. Maybe it's "magic world" and people there just have that kind of reproductive variability. Cool. Whatever it is, it needs a reason. But without that, it comes off as immersion-disrupting tokenism.

So, no, I don't think "focusing on race" is an automatic signifier of racism.

[wizofaus]

"Would you be ok with the Pinocchio reboot if the same African-descended actress portrayed the fairy, but were instead made up with freakishly white skin?"

Including the word "freakishly" is deliberately setting up the expectation that nobody would think that was acceptable. But I'd like to think we should be able to live in a world where if being literally white-coloured was a key component of a character, then yes, a black actor should be able to play the character wearing whatever costume/makeup or using whatever special effects are necessary to pull off the part. Unfortunately I'm not sure we are in that world yet - the most well-known case of a black public figure appearing "white" still gets accused of betraying his racial background, even if it's almost certain it was entirely due to a skin condition (Vitiligo, a diagnosis confirmed on autopsy).

[mcphage]

> Give him all of the charity he needs to refute your guess that he's a bigot.

> So, no, I don't think "focusing on race" is an automatic signifier of racism.

It sounds like you're saying "if he acts like a bigot, but he says he's not a bigot, then give him the benefit of the doubt."

[peoplefromibiza]

> The only part of the depiction he’s complaining about is race

Am I?

Are you sure?

Can you quote me on that please?

The blue fairy is an important part of my culture, at least for me.

If someones rewrites it using all the power of a conglomerate like Disney, that puts at risk our shared culture and heritage.

For me she's gonna be a woman with blue air, for someone younger it will be a bald black woman, that has no direct representation in the society where I live.

I don't care who the actress is or what the color of her skin is, it's just not the "Fata Turchina", it's another character.

Simple as that.

Try doing that with Sherlock Holmes and see what happens.

What would happen if a Chinese company made a movie where Martin Luther King is an Albanian immigrant who came to Italy with the Vlora ship in 1991 to become a supporter of immigrants rights and got killed by a mobster in a fight over a pool game?

[wizofaus]

I would totally watch a Sherlock Holmes played by Benedict Cumberbatch dressed up as bald black woman!

Look, if having the blue fairy's character being reinterpreted in such a way is simply something you'd prefer not to watch, that's cool. Maybe it bothers you that a generation of new viewers will absorb a different version of a story for which the orginal has a particular place in your heart, but that's just how culture works - for most of human existence stories weren't written down and changed on each retelling anyway. It doesn't lessen their importance or impact.

Having said all that - I've yet to hear many examples of modern adaptations of music in classical tradition written 100s of years ago that I can accept as any sort of improvement. I can't quite put my finger on why there's such a difference.

[rendall]

> What would happen if a Chinese company made a movie where Martin Luther King is an Albanian immigrant who came to Italy with the Vlora ship in 1991 to become a supporter of immigrants rights and got killed by a mobster in a fight over a pool game?

You're not very good at arguing your case. I see where you're trying to go with this, but that analogy sucks.

Look, Disney just ruins everything. I grew up with the A.A. Milne books for Winnie the Pooh. As a child, I had a picture in my mind for all of the characters, appearance, voice, manner. Disney's Winnie the Pooh is not it, and they have such cultural dominance that their vision can seem to overwrite the original.

I've had to just learn to not sweat it. Blade Runner 2049? Excellent movie, but I do not consider it canon. The original had a sense of humor and hopefulness that 2049 just absolutely lacked.

My Disney+ shows that I'll have access to Pinocchio on September 8th. Not sure if you have already seen it, but if not, give it a watch with an open mind. You might like it.

[mcphage]

> For me she's gonna be a woman with blue air, for someone younger it will be a bald black woman

Weird that you spend more time complaining about her skin color than her hair.

> Try doing that with Sherlock Holmes and see what happens.

Shit yeah, sign me up.

> What would happen if a Chinese company made a movie where Martin Luther King is an Albanian immigrant who came to Italy with the Vlora ship in 1991 to become a supporter of immigrants rights and got killed by a mobster in a fight over a pool game?

They might well do that. But it’s different when it’s a real person than an imaginary fairy. And also when you change his appearance versus when you change what he stands for.

[tzs]

> I would never think of a movie were Kunta Kinte is Dutch and is portrait by Chris Hemsworth

Kunta Kinte was a slave in a story that heavily dealt with slavery, set in a time and setting where slavery was race-based, for an audience somewhat familiar with the history of that time and setting.

If you made him Dutch and portrayed by Chris Hemsworth you'd have to include in your movie all kinds of extra exposition and world building to set the background for the story.

Most of the race changes people have mentioned so far did not involve characters where their race was either important to the story or to reducing the amount of exposition and world building you need to convey the story's context to the audience.

[pvaldes]

Not dutch, but Chris Hemsworth could perfectly fit in the role of a --slavic-- people in an history of slavery. The first slaves with that name where white. In this particular case the history is easily translatable to a different location.

[peoplefromibiza]

> did not involve characters where their race was either important to

I think the appearances of a character is quite important if the author took the time to describe it, don't you think?

Would a Little women adaptation where the three women are two trans gender people, one Black, one Asian and one South American person that identifies as woman, be a good idea?

We all know what "Little women" is about, we all expect that, not something else completely unrelated to the original IP.

Why isn't Jay Gatsby black in the movies and only black people in the book are also black in the movie?

Want my opinion?

People are making a big fuss about the ethnicity of actors, but I'm more inclined to think that Disney's worried about another failure like Tim Burton's Dumbo (the original Dumbo is considered unacceptable by today's standards and people staid away from the new one) and is playing it safe with a story (Pinocchio) that has no such bad legacy attached. it's so safe that there's even a "project Pinocchio" in my country against racism in schools.

> If you made him Dutch and portrayed by Chris Hemsworth you'd have to include in your movie all kinds of extra exposition and world building to set the background for the story.

That's exactly my point.

A black fairy is not an issue because she is black, but because it's a plot hole that the original story don't have.

[tzs]

>> If you made him Dutch and portrayed by Chris Hemsworth you'd have to include in your movie all kinds of extra exposition and world building to set the background for the story.

> That's exactly my point.

> A black fairy is not an issue because she is black, but because it's a plot hole that the original story don't have.

I just watched a couple trailers for the new Pinocchio movie and they included a scene with the fairy.

She's dressed in glowing white sparkly clothes, has translucent sparkly wings, a wand with a star on the end that is clearly a magic wand, is surrounded by sparkles, transfigured Pinocchio, and it looks like she travels in some sort of amorphous flowing light blob.

The amount of extra exposition and world building needed to let the audience know that the character is a fairy is zero.

Here's a photo [1].

[1] https://www.instyle.com/news/cynthia-erivo-blue-fairy-live-a...

[pvaldes]

The black bald fairy is just a stunt to create fake controversy, to sell tickets.

And if any children read this, let me tell you that either you run to ask money to your parents and go to itchy and scratchy land, or you are a bunch of little racists. You are warned. Gimme money.

[treis]

>But in the small village in Tuscany of 1800 depicted in Pinocchio there were no black people, I can assure you.

Probably not many English speakers either.

[wizofaus]

Or fairies. Or talking puppets.

[nec4b]

Septimius Severus was not black. He may had darker skin, but was not sub Saharan black.

[keepper]

So you’re now equating a pseudo historical character with a children’s book?

Oh brother…

I was not born in Italy, but I am of Italian descent btw. Not sure why that matters, but it probably does to you :-/

Also, I guess you mean only true northern Italians can play the character lol why don’t you phrase it like that as well. See how absurd it sounds?

[peoplefromibiza]

> So you’re now equating a pseudo historical character with a children’s book?

So you're not aware that Pinocchio is a metaphorical book about Italian society and the need for free, universal, public schools in Italy?

> only true northern Italians

"true northern Italians" do not exist.

They are like any other Italian.

It is absurd to think the contrary.

Probably even "Italian" as a distinct ethnicity doesn't exist.

Collodi is part of our culture, the blue fairy is part of our culture, we don't identify with her because she's white, but because she's good.

[fttx_]

I think you're right. Italian is not an ethnicity. Italy hasn't been a unified political entity for very long. There are Italians from all sorts of different ethnicities and races. Would it be okay for a Black person to play this role if they were Italian? If not, why is it okay for non-Italian white actors to play other roles?

Is a Corsican person Italian? Is an Italian-American? Is Mario Balotelli (for example)? Why does any of this matter?