| >When we're discussing things like societal acceptance of transgender folks. This is a separate discussion and it often conflates with the the discussion of truth and fiction. Yes we should accept both people with BIID and transgender people into our society with respect and empathy. But the main question is how should we interpret their place in society? Do we interpret BIID as normal or a disorder? Do we interpret transgenderism as a disorder or totally and completely normal? >Next, the thought occurs that there's at least one very obvious difference between BIID and gender change: having a limb off is generally bad, whereas being a woman (or man) is generally A-Ok. It's debatable whether it's ok. The line is blurry here. A genital sex change does involve mutilation of genitals and re-sculpting of flesh in the genitalia area and breast area. It also involves experimental treatment with certain hormones that were previously used to chemically castrate male sex offenders. Some of these treatments are being recommended to kids before puberty and before 18. It is borderline similar to BIID as it is involves desires to physically carve into flesh and make irreversible modifications. It's even arguable that BIID involves similar brain chemistry mechanisms as transgenderism as it is arguably an abnormal/ interpretation of "self", meaning that if BIID is classified as a disease it's not to far off to call transgenderism a disease as well. The big question here is, if cures for BIID existed in pill form, is it moral to offer them to BIID patients? If so if the same pills existed for transgenderism... is it moral to offer them too? Maybe given no cures for either the best path is to acknowledge both people with BIID or transgenderism as completely normal. >BIID too for that matter falls into the "beyond the pale" category for me. Me too. And for many... transgenderism also falls beyond the pale. It's understandable why. Both BIID and transgender people exist in nature. But for both they are statistical anomalies. Fewer then 1% of the population across occupy a gender category other then the traditional binary roles they were born with. So what is beyond the pale? If personally, for yo,u Gender isn't beyond the pale But BIID is... why is your opinion more valid then someone else who thinks that Gender is beyond the pale? > I'm pointing out that the real world is not fully covered by logic, in fact only a tiny minuscule portion of the real world is susceptible to logical comprehension. I don't. Logic is the domain of mathematics. Interpretation of the world is based off of opinion, not logic. However, such interpretations of the world should remain logically consistent. Meaning if you should believe racism is wrong but black people are all criminals then something is wrong with your belief system. Everyone agrees that things should remain consistent. That is the problem here with transgenderism. There is an inconsistency within it. It fits every criteria of what we would classify as a psychological disorder no different then BIID. But what is more important here? The correct categorization of BIID or transgenderism? Or respecting peoples rights to cut off their own limbs/genitalia? Our biased emotions pull us in 3 directions here. Transgender people deserve respect, limbs/genitalia should not be cut off, truth and correct categorization of things should be followed. You cannot follow all 3 tenets at the same time even if you feel they are all right because they are contradictory. >I grew up reading sci-fi stories where e.g. a man might take a pill before bed and wake up a woman. To me the future would obviously and naturally have gender change as a normal thing (though perhaps uncommon) along with things like new synthetic genders, or body changes like fur or tails, or even becoming "transhuman" entirely though mutation or "uploading". What gender is a disembodied consciousness in a cybernetic matrix anyway, eh? I mean sure. What if the sci if story talked about a future where people can painlessly cut off their limbs and feed them to other people? We also have technology where people can eat a pill and instantly regrow the lost limb. So people regularly cut off their limbs and feed each other for fun? This might seem cool to someone with BIID. And logically there's nothing wrong with this future as well. But as you said logic doesn't fully cover the real world. Why is it that you and I feel that my sci fi universe is strange, while your sci-description of the future is more normal? And what right do we have to enforce our belief that your sci-fi world is more normal then the one I describe? It's totally understandable that many will find the first story just as weird, especially if that person lived in a culture that hasn't been bombarded with media imagery that normalizes transgenderism. |