[cq]

Israel has extreme human rights issues they need to deal with before I'll consider doing business with them. The Israeli government insists on continuing to settle its citizens onto Palestinian territory, driving local Palestinians off their land. As long as settlements continue, businesses should not look to Israel as a country to work with.

[reuven]

You're right. Israel does have serious human-rights issues with the Palestinians.

But: Israel also has a thriving democracy that subjects its government officials to constant, withering criticism and investigation. We have a court system that isn't afraid to punish government officials. (We just sent a former president to prison for rape, and a former prime minister is being tried for corruption.) We have a free press, with newspapers and blogs that raise every possible political idea you can imagine. We have mass rallies and protests. We allow our citizens to travel abroad wherever they want, whenever they want, and encourage them to speak with people from other countries. We invite people to come from other countries into Israel, and to travel more or less wherever they want, without government supervision.

(And yes, many of these privileges are unavailable to Palestinians. Believe me, many of us in Israel realize this, and both vote and act accordingly.)

I can understand and respect someone who says, "I'll only do business with liberal democracies like those in North America and Western Europe." That's a reasonable and consistent approach to things.

But to single Israel out for attention and boycott, when many countries have worse human-rights records and none of the positive democratic attributes I mentioned above? That seems both unfair, disingenuous, and lacking in perspective.

[exit]

specifically because israel has many characteristics of a liberal western democracy, it's worth being particularly concern about how militarism, ethnic nationalism, etc. flourish there.

by and large we know what's wrong with north korea, libya under gaddafi, etc.

we need to pay particular attention to a country that can almost pass as western and still perpetrate atrocious human rights violations, because it's more plausible that we could end up like that.

[fistofjohnwayne]

Additionally, due to America's ongoing aid to Israel, Americans might express concern over what they are funding.

[gyardley]

Israel got its territory the same way practically every other country in the world got its territory - they obtained it through a treaty, or they won it in a war.

You know, there's a term for holding Jews to moral standards no other nation on earth is subjected to.

And as far as 'extreme human rights issues' are concerned - in the Palestinian National Authority, the freedom to criticize the government is a sham, journalists are regularly killed by governmental authorities, selling land to Jews is a crime punishable by death, there's regular violence against non-Muslims, honor killings take place regularly and are considered acceptable, homosexuality is illegal, and women have to wear a headscarf to enter a government building. And you're not doing business with Israel?

People like you confound me. I can't tell if you're anti-Semitic or just completely brainwashed and blind to the facts on the ground.

[marcf]

Israel runs a two tiered right system. In the West Bank Israeli settlers live under Israeli laws while the non-Jewish Palestinians live under military rule where their land is constantly being confiscated for Jewish settlers.

That is wrong, plain and simple.

It doesn't matter what you said is wrong with Arabs, running a two tiered system of rights is very wrong.

[gyardley]

When a party loses a war against another party, they don't have much in the way of rights until there's a negotiated peace. They certainly don't get to talk about 'their land' in any meaningful sense.

Israel occupied the West Bank, the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights after winning the Six-Day War. When Egypt - twelve years and another war later - negotiated a peace treaty with Israel, Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula to them, and it once again became Egyptian.

Syria hasn't shown much interest in negotiating peace with Israel, and that's why the Golan Heights are not Syrian at the moment - and the way things are going, likely never will be.

The Palestinians also haven't shown much interest in peace. The Israelis have made many generous offers over the years - the Palestinians could've easily negotiated peace and established a state at the Oslo Accords or the Camp David Accords. They declined to do so. When they eventually decide that they do want peace, then 'their land' will be what they negotiate - but until then, they've got they same status as Germans or Japanese in the immediate aftermath of WWII.

Considering Israel's historical and religious ties to the land, and considering that there's been over forty years to sort out peace, they've been incredibly tolerant by not annexing the entire West Bank outright. (Which they've quite plausibly got the right to do - Israel may have signed the Fourth Geneva Convention, but the West Bank wasn't claimed by another sovereign state at the time of its occupation.) European countries aren't nearly as generous when they win wars - which is why Gdańsk is Polish, Bolzano is Italian, Kaliningrad is Russian, and Hungary is a whole lot smaller than it used to be.

Again, I have to question why people want to hold the world's only Jewish state to a standard followed by no other country.

[marcf]

You seem to state that Israel not annexing the West Bank is a desirable thing from the perspective of Palestinian Arabs.

Actually real annexation is desirable. Annexing the West Bank and incorporating its Arab residents into Israel proper (the Jewish settler residents of the West Bank are already considered Israeli) would be a just solution to the issue.

Then everyone would be equal under the law and the Palestinians would have a say over the future. Many of them would like to return to their homes that they left 1948:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

I think that either there is a two-state solution or a one-state solution (which can be annexation if you like) is okay. But the dual system of rights where Jewish settlers are privileged and non-Jewish Palestinian Arabs are under military rule is not something a modern Western state should be justifying to itself or others, and it something that people like yourself shouldn't have to wrap themselves in knots trying to "explain".

[fistofjohnwayne]

It's likely he's not going to do business with the Palestinian National Authority, either.

[ronnier]

Contrary to what cq might wish to portray, Israel is by and large a fair society to live in. There's a reason that 20% of the population are Arabs who choose to stay in Israel instead of living in one of the surrounding countries.

[jarodym]

It's not a fair society. I only lived there for a year, but it was enough time to understand that those people you speak of are considered sub human second class citizens by the establishment that calls shots. Israel is fucked. I mean that with no disrespect.

[fistofjohnwayne]

> There's a reason that 20% of the population are Arabs who choose to stay in Israel

Because they'd like to return to their homes one day?

[radagaisus]

Fact: 77 percent of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2008/05/study-israeli-...

[marcf]

Now if only all the Arab residents in Israel had rights and freedoms then everything would be okay. Israel is much better for the Arabs who are citizens that it is for the Arabs in the West Bank who don't.

[ugh]

With the Israeli government? Or with Israelis in general?

Not doing business with Israelis because you disagree with policies of their government seems nonsensical to me.

[marcf]

Here is a great website that details what can be done and why it is effective to boycott those who are affiliated with the occupation:

http://www.whoprofits.org/

[fistofjohnwayne]

You haven't heard of BDS then?

http://www.bdsmovement.net/bdsintro

[ugh]

I haven’t. A blanket boycott of all Israeli products and companies seems counterproductive to me, though.

[fistofjohnwayne]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinvestment_from_South_Africa

[ugh]

I don’t think Israel and South Africa are in any way comparable.

[marcf]

Both South Africa and Israel were created by European refugees fleeing persecution. Both countries became very militaristic and has Western allies who overlooked the way they treated their natives. Both countries where populated by a people who felt that their culture was under attack and vulnerable.

[exit]

i'm not sure what the phrase "in any way" means any more then.

[jauer]

Are Israel's issues any worse than China? Would you refuse to do business with China?

[DanielShir]

Even the comparison to China seems like an overkill.

Israel is a democracy, China isn't. Israel has free speech, China doesn't.

The two can hardly be compared.

[marcf]

Israel is only a democracy for those included as citizens. There are millions of Arabs in the West Bank who are explicitly excluded as citizens while the Jewish Israeli settlers all around them are considered Israeli citizens.

Israel is a democracy for those that it wants in its democracy and it is military rule for those that wants excluded.

[YoungEnt]

First you say Israel doesn't rightfully own the west bank, and then you say Israel should give all west bank Arab residents citizenship?

You'r contradicting yourself.

[marcf]

No, I am saying that Israel runs a two tiered system of rights in the West Bank, one for Jewish Israeli settlers and one for the non-Jewish Palestinian Arabs. I believe it is wrong. Do you feel it is justified?

[radagaisus]

I totally agree with you cq. Since Saturday 30+ people died in protests in Egypt. It was reported today that a news photographer in Syria got his eyes cut off before he was executed. Israel is such a douche.

[ugh]

(I disagree with cq but your argument makes no sense. Other’s failings don’t excuse your own.)

[radagaisus]

Israel has a ton of failings but in comparison with every other country in the world it's ridiculous how much attention and focus Israel is getting.

[ugh]

Huh? I see Egypt and Syria much more often in the media.

[gushpanka]

But what does Israel has to do with affairs of her surrounding countries? Why are we to blame for acts of Egyptian and Syrian authorities against their own people?

If ever, the UN and all of the Western World is the douche - why do they let it go on?

Did you ever ask yourself why the US and Europe got involved with Lybia's violent protests, and still remain completely silent about whatever is going on in Syria and Egypt?

This is hypocrisy at its best (worst?).

[marcf]

I believe that the person you are responding to was being sarcastic.

[gushpanka]

you're right :/ truly sorry for misunderstanding. got carried away.