[dont__panic]

Those big cars are the kind of "perverse market incentive" I'm talking about.

Why do you need a big car to transport your children? Because:

- you can't walk anywhere useful with your kids (so you must get in a car)

- public transportation is inconvenient or expensive

- biking is dangerous

- the big car makes you feel safer because all of the other cars are big

Why are those things the way that they are? Because people chose to drive cars, live far from useful things in the suburbs, and that eroded the ability to bike or provide useful and affordable public transportation.

I grew up in a car-centric place. The "big SUV" as your only gateway to the outside world is effectively a prison. You can't do things on your own. You don't build a mental map of the world you live in. You don't get to do things outside unless it's in your yard or at some structured activity accessed by car. Why do you think the "teenagers hate the suburbs" trope is so common?

I know raising a kid is difficult, even though I have not raised one myself. I know that they require all kinds of stuff to take out into the world. But somehow in NYC people get around with a single stroller and a backpack with kids, frequently taking public transit.

> Taking them on public transport is a huge pain. Even if you don’t have kids, I’m sure you’ve been annoyed by a stroller on the subway.

Maybe at rush hour. But I largely just appreciate the fact that a parent is trying to raise their kid to walk places and live in the world, instead of isolating them in a car in a suburban hellscape. Again -- perverse incentives have made the world this way. It doesn't have to be this way.

[atwood22]

Sorry, you don't have kids so you just don't get it. I didn't get it either before I had a kid. All of the reasons you listed, bad public transport, dangerous biking, safety, etc. have nothing to do with why I want to buy an SUV. There are just so many items involved with raising a child. Yes, you might be able to take public transit so your kid can see the doctor, as long as you time it to be at an off-peak time, but there are so many other cases where you need a large car. A very basic example: You have a young child in NYC and you want to spend the weekend with your parents who live in Westchester. Without a kid, getting on Metro North with a small duffel bag of clothes would be trivial. With a kid, you need to bring a crib, toys, stroller, diapers, multiple changes of clothes, and maybe even a high table with you. Good luck getting all of that on the train, especially with a screaming kid!

The failure in your reasoning is that you see parents on the train, so you think that's their only mode of transportation. Yes, you can take the kid on the train for certain errands. Other times, however, having a car is 100x more convenient. And that is true everywhere.

[dont__panic]

> Sorry, you don't have kids so you just don't get it.

I know you prefaced this with "sorry" but this is incredibly condescending. You're literally starting your argument with "it is impossible for you to empathize" -- but I have plenty of friends and family members with children and very much understand your struggle. Have a little more faith.

Your "very basic example" is exactly the kind of niche case trip where I would suggest you SHOULD use a car because of American infrastructure.

I'm mostly talking about daily errands and recreation in your home city. Going to the park, or the beach, or visiting some shops, or having dinner, or going to the doctor, or going to school shouldn't require a big SUV. If they do, I suspect you're transporting a lot more crap with you than you truly need for your kid. And you're ignoring the negative externality of imprisoning your child in a car-centric world where they have no freedom whatsoever.

[atwood22]

I find it extremely condescending to say you understand and empathize with something you have no direct experience with. Like put your money with your mouth is. Instead of telling people to live a certain way, live that way yourself and get back to me. Imagine we were talking about something else, say race, instead of of child rearing. Would you really consider the opinion of a white person saying “I understand the experience of black people in America because I have a lot of black friends” valid? Sounds pretty crazy to me.

[dont__panic]

Please be respectful in your comment responses. I'm merely suggesting that you could raise a single child without a giant SUV. Child rearing and race are not the same experience. To imply as much is disrespectful to people who suffer as a result of racism in our world. It sounds like you have a lot of baggage to work out, I hope things get better for you.

[microtherion]

You realize that people were raising children for millenia before the invention of SUVs, and are still raising children in most of the world without them?

I have two children; for most of their childhood we did not have a car at all (though we occasionally rented a midsized one for road trips), now we have a small one. Traveling with a stroller is certainly a hassle, but they do fit on public transit and in small cars. The crib is probably the one tricky part, but there are several solutions that don't require an SUV.

It seems to me that the massive car and the habit of packing half the household into it for a trip sort of went hand in hand, but this is absolutely not the only way to manage raising children.

[atwood22]

Are you advocating for returning to the way people lived millennia ago? You’re free to do that. I’m going to keep enjoying penicillin.

[neither_color]

Not to mention that the more stops along the way, the more "legs" of a trip involving subway line changes, bus transfers, and walks you have to make Let's say you want to stop at a park and admire the scenery, stop somewhere else to get some ice cream, stop at the hardware store because you remembered you need something, and so on. Making all those detours is much easier with a car and you're way less limited in what you can bring back with you.

[CodeWriter23]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, it sounds like you're in the "Before 1st Grade" phase of life with your kids. When my daughter passed that, there was the magnet school 45 minutes away (but 15 minutes at off-peak), play dates with kids at the magnet school who are flung all over the large metropolitan basin in which we live, Girl Scouts, Theatre Troupe, Acting Lessons, Martial Arts, Bike Rides, Park Days and various other extracurriculars. There are not enough hours in the day to make those trips using public transit where I live. And showing up on time for any of that using transit??? You've got to be kidding.