[hypfer]

> As I said, as a developer working on a software project for your employer, you often inherit dependencies you had no say in.

Well y'know... you're kinda being paid for that. That literally is your job. You're given money to deal with that.

It is not a matter of "empathy" for a FOSS maintainer to do your job for you.

[ricardobeat]

I would like to know which universe everyone here lives in, where such scenario is a possibility. Let’s say you use Kubernetes. A transitive dependency that does DNS resolution in a built in module is doing something wrong, like not resolving hosts ending with the letter X. You can’t “refactor to remove the dependency”, you can’t realistically maintain a fork of the whole thing. This is what the majority of these situations look like. OSS is supposed to be a collaborative environment where everyone can contribute a little, not a “fuck you, pay me” environment.

[vinceguidry]

Our team does do cutting-edge work with Kubernetes, and we run into this situation quite literally all the time. How do we handle it? We're being supported by a multi-billion dollar business and we have the resources and talent to a) code around the deficiency, b) pivot to find something new, c) get in touch with our contacts at Google, actually use those enterprise support contracts we pay $$$$$ for, or d) make our own stop-gap solution. Every single one of these we've employed at various steps in the last few years.

Where you're mistaken is in not understanding the difference between FOSS and Enterprise OSS. You're describing a collaboration environment that can and should be present in FOSS. (but sadly often isn't) With OSS... you better have your checkbook ready. It very much IS a "fuck you, pay me" environment, and if you don't have the cash, you really shouldn't be messing around with Enterprise OSS. Use, and support, Free, by that I mean copylefted, Software. Build on Proxmox, not on K8s.

FOSS is a software commons, Enterprise OSS is a giant collection of walled gardens. You have to pay me to maintain Enterprise OSS. I'd maintain FOSS for free. You can't apply the dynamics that underpin FOSS to Enterprise OSS. Enterprise OSS is not written for you. You're not its target market. Enterprises want as much as possible to offload the massive costs, so they fund software foundations like the CNCF and the Apache project to do the core dev work so that teams like mine can have a stable base to build on and relative career stability.

[MangoCoffee]

>OSS is supposed to be a collaborative environment where everyone can contribute a little

OSS coders doesn't owe you anything if they don't want to be collaborative. you already getting the code for free. you are paid to deal with these Open Source software. you can always buy the commercial software if Open Source is not doing what you want.

> not a “fuck you, pay me” environment

i don't understand. if OSS coders offer an pay option. why shouldn't they get pay? you get paid to deal with Open source software by your employer, no? you get to eat 'cause you get paid to deal with Open source software, no? why shouldn't OSS coders get to eat too? only you get to eat but not them?

[ctrlmeta]

> OSS is supposed to be a collaborative environment where everyone can contribute a little, not a “fuck you, pay me” environment.

This is a gross misunderstanding of what open source is. Please read the licenses that come with the OSS software you use. The authors and maintainers do not owe you anything beyond what the license says.

[jamie_ca]

I read that sentence as "where everyone can contribute a little [to the overall ecosystem]". Absolutely maintainers don't need to accept your contribution of a patch, and that's what forking is for - both are part of the overall banner of open source licensing.

[ricardobeat]

Who said anything about “owing”? If you write a book and I send you a note correcting something in it, you’re right - you don’t owe me shit, but it would be pretty nice to get a response. I find these views extremely cynical, a little niceness works both ways.

[ctrlmeta]

Since you agree that the maintainers don't owe us shit, we are on the same page. I guess I took issue with this -

> OSS is supposed to be a collaborative environment

OSS is supposed to be what the OSS authors and maintainers want it to be for their project while satisfying the terms and conditions of the license they have chosen for their project. It does not have to be a collaborative environment. Yes, it will be great if it is. Many authors just don't have the time to do collaboration after they have made the initial few releases. But that does not stop others from collaborating on it or forking it and improving it.

I am sorry if this sounds cynical. That's not my intention at all. I genuinely like that the open source licenses gives a lot of rights to the user while also including disclaimers that the author is not responsible for troubles you face with the software. Far from being cynical, I find it very beautiful actually. It allows the authors to be creative and publish software when they can without worrying too much about support and maintenance. Of course it would be nice if the authors also support and maintain the software and many authors do but it is good to know that it is not necessary and the licenses say so too.

[jacobr1]

You don't maintain a fork of the whole thing. You maintain a patch, ideally of an isolated area and now pay for the cost of maintaining the integration/sync of that patch until upstream merges or otherwise fixes the root issue. Depending on issue you can do this in basically clean, or ugly-hack kind of way.

[asoneth]

At the end of the day, everyone must eat and put a roof over their heads.

Someone who uses an open source project in the course of their paid employment doesn't have standing to accuse volunteer maintainers of being overly motivated by money.

[sebastianz]

Then do not use kubernetes, if its complex enough that you cannot afford it as a dependency, with all that entails.

[powerhour]

OSS used to be more collaborative but these days it is corporate to the point you have to sign a damned contract to get a contribution merged. I am not owed better, I am just sad for what we lost.

[account42]

Did we actually lose anything? Projectes that used to be collaboratively developed in the open are still being collaboratively developed in the open and as far as I see that is also the case for most new projects. Except those that are mainly developed by a signle corporation, often with a commercial offering - but having these in addition to more collaboratively developed projects ins't really a loss.

[brudgers]

OSS isn’t supposed to be anything other than what the license says.

[hampereddustbin]

If commanded, sure, but in many cases your job would actually be to communicate the changing environment to management so they may allocate more resources or pay the maintainer or whatever middleman company to upkeep the required software.

Silently trying to plow through problems of these magnitudes will cause the project to be late and still cost the same. It's bad for everyone

[jstummbillig]

It's really simple: Harassing people, who explicitly waived liability in a manner that agrees with the law, is never an okay strategy. That is not to say it can't be very attractive in the face of personal adversity or be very effective, in getting you what you want. Just it's never okay.

I am also somewhat puzzled how we are having a discussion about this on HN, where adherence to open source licenses is usually a virtue. Only as long as our work is not negatively effected, I presume?

[alibarber]

I simply cannot fathom the idea of harassing someone publicly on the internet to deal with a professional issue I face.

In fact, at every company I've ever worked for, damaging the company's reputation by doing that would have lead to far more serious issues at work than just finding a workaround and documenting it well - and then, if suitable, contributing back to the project with something helpful.

[hampereddustbin]

>I am also somewhat puzzled how we are having a discussion about this on HN, where adherence to open source licenses is usually a virtue. Only as long as our work is not negatively effected, I presume?

There are a lot of people on this site. Some of them may think differently than others, there is no way to fuse them into a single persona.

[jstummbillig]

But that is exactly what we do by upvoting, statistically. There is a body of prior work to look at. Our collective stance on oss or mass surveillance is clear, and you can infer the resulting upvotes with certainty, statistically (might actually be a fun game).

The spirit of hn has clear biases and it's not equally open-minded towards all ideas.

[hampereddustbin]

A tiny subset of the site's users have accounts to vote with, and even less make use of it let alone make comments. Any guess about the "average" would be quite inaccurate. The stance of a vocal minority on X can be quite clear on a given thread, but even that is just the opinion of maybe 20-40 people.

And this is assuming there is no point manipulation at play, which is not the case for any popular site. In my opinion points alone can't be taken for more than a slight grain of salt.

[marcus_holmes]

this. As a dev, this is not your problem. If you had a dependency forced on you, and that dependency has issues that the maintainers are not willing to deal with, then escalate the problem to your manager.

Of course, if you included a dependency because you thought it was a good idea, and it turns out to not be a good idea, then that's a different problem. You'll have to let management know that you'll need some time to refactor the code to remove the dependency. That could be a difficult conversation, but the answer is still not "hassle the maintainer to fix my problem"

[briantakita]

> "hassle the maintainer to fix my problem"

Who is proposing that it's a good idea to hassle the maintainer? Most of these interactions go awry when someone decides to be an asshole. The tone of the article which says "fuck off" demonstrates the interpersonal impulses at play here.

Choose who you rely on wisely & try not to get into bad situations. If the maintainers of project x have an ill disposition toward the community, then consider it a red flag.

[keybored]

The hypothetical FOSS maintainer is giving a new meaning to “kill them with kindness” in this thread.