[QuarterReptile]

>I do not believe in an all powerful and loving god because there is simply too much needless suffering in the world

I'm suspect that's not the only reason, but I'll ask just in case: how much can suffering be reduced without the abrogation of free will?

[Kbelicius]

A lot... the only suffering that would require abrogation of free will is the one we do to each other.

[QuarterReptile]

I think that's a huge amount of all suffering, especially if you'll allow me to include suffering we impose on ourselves (most likely unknowingly.)

[twelvedogs]

the idea that we have perfect free will already is silly, so much of who we are and what we are allowed to do is environmental or due to circumstance. who cares if some magic dude makes people not want to murder kids when circumstance already makes a bunch of simple things like choosing to be an artist as a career impossible?

[nine_k]

Free will, not free lunch!

Also, since artists exist, it is possible to choose an artistic career. It's just not possible to guarantee that it would give you any comforts in life besides art.

[twelvedogs]

i mean feel free to attack the example while letting the idea escape, anyone with 5 minutes could come up with a hundred professions where circumstance is the only prerequisite.

[pif]

Not being able to live comfortably out of your favourite hobby ca not justify any harm you cause to another person.

[mannykannot]

How much could the opportunities for the exercise of free will have been expanded through the application of modest constraints on it in relatively few cases?

Not even God can have omniscience, omnipotence, an unwavering commitment to free will, and an intimate concern for the wellbeing of individuals, without compromise. Personally, it's the tendentiousness of the arguments made to reconcile this conflict, not some logical flaw, that renders me skeptical, as they can be debated endlessly without resolution.

[Cthulhu_]

I do sometimes think about what a "good" socialist dictator would be like - and I'm aware there's been quite a few. But things like 'forced' socialism like capping health care prices or nationalizing health care, making rich people pay more taxes to lift up the poor (economic leveling), making politicians live as the poorest people they rule over for a few months.

Or things like limiting free speech; I like to think the world would be a better place if nazis, the KKK and the Confederation, their offshoots, teachings and their symbolisms were banned altogether. No tolerance for intolerance, and stuff.

I mean yeah, this line of thinking is dangerous, and the political left-right spectrum is more like a horseshoe, and I'm no political philosophist or anything. But as we are now, the right-wing is leaning heavily towards totalitarianism, to the point of wanting to abolish 'bad' law enforcement (like the FBI and IRS) in favor of their own cronies (the SS?), and disregarding the constitution and other laws while it suits them.

[scarier]

Why are you so sure that free will exists?

[nine_k]

It's postulated by the same system of faith which postulates the existence of God which is omnipotent, omniscient, and merciful.

[QuarterReptile]

Assuming otherwise precipitates a collapse of the world to meaninglessness. There is too much intelligibility in the world for me to reconcile with that.