[danaris]

> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans.

This is no longer true in most places, and was never a good enough reason to justify paying starting teachers poverty wages.

New York State, which I think most will agree is a state with a strong teachers' union and all that goes with it, has been phasing out defined-benefit pension plans over the past few decades. My mother-in-law, who retired about 10 years ago, was among the last wave to get the "Tier I" full-salary pensions; if you become a teacher in NYS now, you get a much less generous package (I don't know offhand whether it's still defined-benefit, just less, or if they've switched to defined-contribution plans now).