[babarock]

As a Lebanese, I find what you're saying both slightly offensive and slightly true. Lebanon, as a culture distinct from other middle easterners has existed for a very long time. Lebanon as an independent state has been invented in 1920, however there were multiple previous attempts historically to get independance.

We had high levels of autonomy under the Ottoman rule: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Lebanon_Mutasarrifate

Some historical figures have reached levels of influence that would qualify as "independent lebanon" (if people were so good at administrative bookkeeping back in the 1600s): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fakhr_al-Din_II

The modern state of Lebanon fails in part because it's a "contrieved post colonial state", you're right. But claiming it has no historical foundations is misguided. It's wrong. Colonials hijacked a very legit idea, and turned it into a failed state. It's different.

[Theodores]

I think that there are many national identities that are similar. Poland is an example.

Regarding the article, before and after pictures of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria to name a few places are the same.

Prosperous sovereign nations outside Western Europe and North America are bad for business.

[rr888]

> Poland is an example

Poland has been around over a thousand years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Poland

[Theodores]

I think you were a little bit trigger happy with that.

Show me where Poland was on the map before the Western powers drew it on the map after WW1.

Much like Lebanon which has cultural heritage going back, so does Poland. But maps might not reflect that.

[sportslife]

Most of the maps in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland or clicking around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Poland suggest Poland has borders about as stable as any country.

Sure parts of what is now Russia have been part of Poland before, but the center is surprising stable.

[rr888]

Take your pick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Poland

[nine_k]

I wonder why prosperous sovereign nations in South Asia are not bad for business.

Maybe because they don't have the oil.

[rayiner]

The resource curse is probably part of it. But another part is that the Ottoman Empire conquered all of these middle eastern societies at varying levels of development, and the european powers that inherited those colonies were faced with complex sectarian conflict that didn't exist in asia. With the separation of British India into Bangladesh, Pakistan, and India, you've solved 90% of the sectarian conflict that exists in the region. In Lebanon, by contrast, history has left you with Christians, Shia, and Sunni all living in the same place, such that you have a constitutional structure where christians and muslims are each guaranteed half the seats in the legislature, and other roles such as president and prime minister are divided by religion.

[tlear]

They had centralized fully functional states that maintained economy that could supply cities as large or larger than Europe.

Japan was not made by Meiji, it was transformed but foundation of the "miracle" was there. During sengoku it created and armed with locally built firearms armies that dwarfed that of any European state of the time in one generation.. from bows to hundred thousands of muskets

Culture >> everything. In 1945 Beirut was a paradise compared to burned to the ground Tokyo and every other major city. In few decades it had built dams like Kurobe, challenged and beat American car manufacturers.. resources, colonialism.. right. Whoever was running the place knew how to do it, they do not know now and very unlikely to learn in the next 100 years.

[xeromal]

This point is often made for the middle east but a lot of the borders and ideals put in place that caused these disasters were put in place before oil really even mattered.

[Theodores]

Sovereignty is different if you have U.S. bases on your soil. Any country with a U.S. base is a vassal state, independent and therefore sovereign in name only.

Those prosperous states in South Asia, outside mainland China, do seem to have lots of American troops stationed in them.

[lesuorac]

They did have rubber though.