[kenned3]

This is a great conversation as there is so much input from around the world.

I can sort of paint the picture of what takes place here (Canada - also a large land mass country).

we have a rather large public rail system run by the government (GO Transit: https://www.gotransit.com/en/)

it is fairly cost effective, modern, and the trains are all new and comfortable.

we also have a major problem with a population which seems to refuse to accept they cant afford to live where they want.

Everything is about "affordable housing in Toronto", but this is unrealistic.

Once i had a conversation at work on this. A younger employee was complaining that he wasnt able to afford a nice house in Toronto and how "unfair" this was.

The problem is he was making these comments to 5 others, not one of us lived in Toronto either, as we cant afford it.

He refused to commute, and felt he was somehow "entitled" to live where he (and millions of others) want to live.

So in short, while the US and Canada have plenty of space, the population doesn't want to live there because the commutes are around an hour each way to work.

we also have serious NIMBY issues, where any attempt to increase population density is met with fierce resistance by the local residents who are concerned about their own property values.

[yrgulation]

Interesting.

It seems like the main issue is proximity to work and the reasonable demand for a short commute.

If that need would be satisfied then i think the resulting effect of wanting to build more in already crowded cities wouldnt be there, thus nimby’ism wouldnt be an issue because either since locals wouldnt feel threatened.

When i moved to london uk i had the same opinion as your colleague. I wanted a place to live as close as possible to work so that i would spend as little time wasted on commute as possible.

But remote work gave me the option to live anywhere and as such i chose an area outside london. Having the option to leave crowded centres i took it because it satisfies my need for work and a short commute.

So i am wondering isnt the root of all evil the fact that high paying jobs are clustered around large urban centres? Shouldnt tech have solved this issue by now? Even if people prefer office work, cant this work be done in smaller urban areas? Or at the edge of large cities such that people can easily commute from surrounding areas? I get it that in the last blue collar work had to be done in city centres so everyone can access services. But why do software engineers need to be seated in expensive city centres? Or indeed accountants, or even lawyers.

[kenned3]

> So i am wondering isnt the root of all evil the fact that high paying jobs are clustered around large urban centres? Shouldnt tech have solved this issue by now? Even if people prefer office work, cant this work be done in smaller urban areas?

This gets into an interesting "can of worms" problem.

My background is finance which tends to be clustered around "financial hubs" (London, New York, Toronto...).

Again, I will keep my "Toronto" perspective as I am most familiar with it.

Why are all the banks located on "Bay street"? Because if you dont have a "bay street" address you are a "nobody". This odd mentality can be found globally, "wall street" , specific "pockets" of London.

The "big 5" banks here COULD build places in smaller urban areas, but those lack the "power" of that Bay street address.

Now that we established that for odd reasons you have to be located in "bay street" there is also the view that you must be "seen". Remote work is a career killer in Finance.

One large Canadian bank has started the "we want you back in the office" discussions :

https://financialpost.com/fp-work/rbc-staff-back-office-more...

RBC CEO asks staff to come into the office more often 'Technology can’t replicate the energy, spontaneity, big ideas, true sense of belonging and fun' of being in the office, CEO says

Now RBC has issued a press statement on this, the other Canadian banks will quickly follow suit (they move in lock-step with one another).

So.. work in finance, you need to be on "bay street" monday to friday. You don't want to commute, increase demand to live in Toronto.

Basic economics show that increased demand leads to increases in pricing..

See this :

https://www.blogto.com/real-estate-toronto/2022/08/toronto-r...

[yrgulation]

In a way i can see why finance is linked with the status expensive offices give but surely the bulk of the work which happens behind the scenes doesn't need to be located in city centres.

Moving everything that isn't client facing outside would do both a favour. Indeed demand drives prices up but it seems like the reasons behind that demand are a bit archaic.

As a side note I cant help but giggle about this: “true sense of belonging and fun”.

[lotsofpulp]

I sympathize with your younger colleague. Spending 1+ hours of your day, 5 out of 7 days per week, just to afford your own house would mean I would opt out of raising a family. Even 30+ min per day commute sounds terrible.

[kenned3]

This is where things get even more strange.

Most people who do manage to afford to live in Toronto still have to commute. you can get condo's right in the downtown core, but they are insanely expensive.

So the debate he had was a ~30 min commute and a "toronto" address vs a 45-60 min commute and an address in a small city outside Toronto.

I worked in toronto a very long time, dont know many people who actually lived there. Most commuted from cities in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area).

Sometimes the commute is sort of unavoidable.

What are the options to avoid a 30 min commute if you work in a specific industry which prefers "on site" work, and that company owns property in a city you cant afford to live in?

You can change industries, etc.. but those are personal choices.

[lotsofpulp]

> You can change industries, etc.. but those are personal choices.

Yes, I looked around see older colleagues in NYC spending 5/7 days working and traveling to and from work just to get 2/7 days to live and decided pretty quickly it was not for me. It is okay in your 20s beside you can work and then party and work and party, but if your goal is to raise kids then that 2 hours on a train commute per day is soul crushing.