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by erganemic 1396 days ago
The specific person I'm talking about was telling their players that the stakes were real: they were calling for rolls (not attack rolls or saving throws, mind: those are too complicated, just anonymous rolls that were immediately ignored), whittling down the party members until they're just on the verge of death, and then--a miraculous recovery! Victory snatched from the jaws of defeat!

Yeah, they might be having fun in the moment, but someone in that thread asked whether their party knew that all their triumphs were predetermined, and the OP replied in the negative. "You should really either fess up to it being railroaded or try to make it less so," someone advised. "Otherwise, they're gonna find out, feel like morons for getting emotionally invested in what's basically a puppet show, feel like double morons for believing you all the times you assured them that their miraculous victories were real, and never want to play again."

The OP took immediate offense to the idea that people are sensitive to having their emotions manipulated via lies, and went on a multi-paragraph rant that basically amounted to "my players are idiots who don't know what they want and will never find out, and even if they did they'd thank me for my awesome storytelling, and basically when you think about it I have to take away their agency because otherwise they might mess up my plans."

Moreover, I maintain that lines of reasoning like that are more common amongst people who want to play D&D while ignoring all its systematic, rules-based elements. "I should be able to control my players at my whim" and "it's unnecessary to have objective ways to resolve a success or failure except through my fiat" are complementary beliefs, and a person attracted to one is more likely to be attracted to the other.

That's why I say (maybe too tersely) "That's not D&D." Because the fundamental element of D&D--the thing that separates it from a book or movie!--is player choice. And if you have decided that a version of the game where you can enforce your will randomly--beholden to no rules--is the one that aligns with how you want to DM...well, it's not impossible to do that right, but I'm leery of any decision that makes it easier for you to stomp on player choice.

1 comments

Why does it both you so much that other people have fun in a way you don't like?
I'm not sure how you read my previous comment and concluded my objection was to people having fun in a way I don't like. To be super reductive: I think it's better to not play D&D at all if the only way you can see to have fun with it is by lying to your friends in order to provoke a certain emotional response in them.

The relation this has to my top-level comment is that both anecdotally and through "actual play" media, I've noticed that DMs who don't care about the /systems/ of D&D made to enable player choice instead care about using the /vehicle/ of D&D to tell their own story, and that they're willing to steamroll the agency of the characters to do so. I believe /the essential promise/ of D&D is player choice--no one would agree to meet up if they knew you were just going to read your unfinished fantasy novel at them for three hours, they come because they believe they'll get to make choices and have those choices affect things. As such, I'm leery of DMs who (in my experience) are willing to shove mechanics that enable player choice to the side in order to tell the story they want to.

I don't think this is an unreasonable perspective, and I'm a little confused since it seems like you didn't engage with my previous comment at all?