[mister_mister]

Because I've actually watched their content, Some of them are open about it, some are not. Other commenters in this thread now about it. But you are not aware while linking their content?

But selling programs based on pictures that have been achieved with steroids is not helpful for getting people to optimal health.

Some of the people behind linked programs even have life altering injuries from the strain of working out with steroids.

The original article is about daily exercise.

The issue with steroids is that they can alter your body organs permanently.

https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/steroids-...

" Cardiovascular system

    high blood pressure
    blood clots
    heart attacks
    stroke
    artery damage

Hormonal system

Men

    decreased sperm production
    enlarged breasts
    shrinking of the testicles
    male-pattern baldness
    testicular cancer

Women

    voice deepening
    decreased breast size
    coarse skin
    excessive body hair growth
    male-pattern baldness
"

[radu_floricica]

Not what I was asking. I know the effects of steroids. I don't know what every person on that list is saying about them because, frankly, I don't really care about steroids that much. They're way beyond my reasonable cost-benefit window, I just barely started taking creatine. And what I do know of their opinions are squarely against them - this is why I was asking for concrete examples, because I'm curious.

But since you changed the topic, just for fun and the sake of the conversation. From your link:

> A variety of side effects can occur when anabolic steroids are misused, ranging from mild effects to ones that are harmful or even life-threatening. Most are reversible if the user stops taking the drugs. However, others may be permanent or semi-permanent.

This can actually apply to a wide variety of things. Remember all the drug scare about "drug abuse"? It's technically true - you can abuse most recreational drugs, including cannabis, and you can definitely fuck up your life on meth. And yet now, 10-20 years later, we have cannabis cookies free for sale, and quite a lot of ADHD people medicating themselves quite successfully with Adderall. There's a big difference between use, misuse and abuse.

Part of my (very idle and intellectual) curiosity is if steroids can be used safely. My instincts say "yes, probably, but no idea how". The people in the list above pretty uniformly say "no". Which is why I was hoping you'd point me to different opinions.

[mister_mister]

"I just barely started taking creatine. And what I do know of their opinions are squarely against them - this is why I was asking for concrete examples"

That is great example you found, there way more. Because creatine is one of most research supplement. It is safe with clear benefits[0]. Since they are using steroids they might miss the clear effects of creatine and are giving information that is incorrect and therefor harmful. What science is actually saying that creatine is safe and can not only help with muscles it can also help with brain performance[1].

> Creatine is one of the most popular nutritional ergogenic aids for athletes. Studies have consistently shown that creatine supplementation increases intramuscular creatine concentrations which may help explain the observed improvements in high intensity exercise performance leading to greater training adaptations. In addition to athletic and exercise improvement, research has shown that creatine supplementation may enhance post-exercise recovery, injury prevention, thermoregulation, rehabilitation, and concussion and/or spinal cord neuroprotection. Additionally, a number of clinical applications of creatine supplementation have been studied involving neurodegenerative diseases (e.g., muscular dystrophy, Parkinson’s, Huntington’s disease), diabetes, osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, aging, brain and heart ischemia, adolescent depression, and pregnancy. These studies provide a large body of evidence that creatine can not only improve exercise performance, but can play a role in preventing and/or reducing the severity of injury, enhancing rehabilitation from injuries, and helping athletes tolerate heavy training loads. Additionally, researchers have identified a number of potentially beneficial clinical uses of creatine supplementation.

For almost anyone that is not training hard their body is still in what is called the nooby phase, where incredible growth in power, size, endurance can happen. After 1 of 2 years of training this will stop however and gains will be become more difficult. Within that period anyone can get the feeling as if they are taking steroids.

unto your question: > Part of my (very idle and intellectual) curiosity is if steroids can be used safely If you are able to source Medical grade steroids, from reputable sellers. And you have health professionals, and doing regular blood work. Then yes it can be safely done. And you'll need good sporting coach to make sure you won't strain your joints too much.

Many athletes take them without the above, because their livelihood depends on it. But there are young people dying because they buy programs that only work for enhanced people. And they are failing to progress with that program and start using weird pills from the internet that are containing many weird substances. You don't know what you are going to get. And with drugs you can at least feel the effects, but can't feel the difference between different steroids or other molecules interacting with your organs.

[0]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5469049/ [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691485/