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by strogonoff 1402 days ago
> That’s because the company correctly intuited a significant gap between its users stated preference — no News Feed — and their revealed preference, which was that they liked News Feed quite a bit. The next fifteen years would prove the company right.

Stop right there. What you mean is that their corporate wallets like it. These companies delude themselves if they consider “spend more time in the app” as an indicator for users liking it, in no sane world it is true.

I like Mail.app because I need to spend so little time in it to get the most value out. I hate Instagram because it happens all the time that I missed a friend’s post because I didn’t scroll far enough.

Curiously enough, this self-centered self-delusion only happens in UI teams of pseudo-free double-sided market “products” where you have to keep viewing ads to make the corp money.

This business model also breaks how the market is supposed to work—the actual users and paying customers are now separate groups, users cannot vote with their wallets (or even leave, because the offering is free and my friends are here so the moat for competitors is infinite), and company’s interests are not aligned with theirs.

3 comments

Most of the theorizing about this episode gets the history wrong. The user outcry was because News Feed on rollout suddenly broadcast widely communication that had been previously been reasonably private. Suddenly pokes and wall posts between two friends were pushed to your entire network.

Users weren’t wrong to dislike this! Facebook violated their assumptions, just as if you learned someone was live-streaming your conversation with them at a bar. In response, Facebook provided more granular privacy controls—but more importantly, users changed their behavior to adapt to the assumptions of the new platform.

(The outcry also highlighted the potential for virality in feed-like platforms, which was great for growth but of course also has negative consequences…)

Looking at Facebook is like looking at the rings of a tree. You can see the time where they worried about Twitter. Then they feared Snapchat. Now you can see how TikTok is making them panic.
"Heroin users said they didn't like heroin, but it turns out they take it quite often, so they must like it"
I think your comment is both wrong and spot on.

IMO the "wrong" part is that most heroin users will tell you they fucking love heroin. It makes them feel great/escape from life's problems, and users know this. The fact that users also know that heroin is destroying their lives isn't incompatible with loving it.

The "spot on" part of your comment is that the addictive dynamics between social media and heroin are basically exactly the same. And over the past 5-10 years as this awareness has grown (e.g. documentaries like The Social Dilemma), social media companies have paid lip service to acknowledging some of the dangers of "endless scrolling", but the rise of TikTok has proven that the lip service was always bullshit. The second another company came along with a stronger drug, all the incumbents are immediately trying to copy that addictive drug. They don't give 2 shits about your well-being and never did.

> IMO the "wrong" part is that most heroin users will tell you they fucking love heroin.

Yeah, the analogy wasn't great there but I think the point comes across. This is very timely for me, as I've just had a day spent playing chess (and losing) for hours.

I hate it, but I can't stop, because I get easily addicted to games. Luckily, I've wasted enough time on DotA to recognize the pattern, so I uninstalled the app, but by now I recognize the pattern of "this makes me feel terrible but I can't get enough of it".

Not everyone is, which is, I think, why social media (especially jealousy-fueled ones like Instagram) is so insidious. It's easy to mistake it for enjoyment.

Yep, I think the good analogy is someone on a diet. It's like the social media companies are saying "Hah, see, you say you don't want chocolate cheesecake, but you eat it every time I put it in front of you!!"

No shit sherlock, if I didn't love chocolate cheesecake I wouldn't need to be on a diet in the first place. But we need to acknowledge (as you put it, "It's easy to mistake it for enjoyment") the ability to say "Even though I am addicted to this thing, I know it's bad for me and I'm trying to stop".

Social media companies are trying to pretend (as they lie through their teeth) that there is no difference. They are modern-day drug pushers and I wish society would treat them as such. Instead of saying "Oh cool, you have that great job at Facebook" I wish we would give them the same amount of social respect we give to corner meth dealers.

> IMO the "wrong" part is that most heroin users will tell you they fucking love heroin.

It's totally possible to choose to take a drug regularly and at the same time hate it (along with your own guts for choosing to take it). Source: former smoker.

I have to say it’s slightly different.

— In case of some addictive substance, one might choose to do it to “get the kick” associated with that substance. Yes! The addictiveness makes the term “preference” highly questionable, and I can totally see how big social is pushing similar bio-psychological buttons with impunity. It’s an important point, but different to mine.

— In the case I described, the preference is in favor of keeping in touch with friends; and using Instagram is a necessary suffering to achieve that preference. There’s no alternative: all my contacts are there, APIs are closed, no competitors, etc. It’s more or less similar to claiming that my revealed preference is driving/taking taxis in a city where there is no public transport: I’d rather avoid both, but I do like to go places.

This is a really silly point frankly, and can be applied to any product people have ever gravitated towards.

You might claim to not like tv but it still became the most used entertainment product for decades.

Same goes for the newsfeed.

Any social network or product with a newsfeed will easily beat one without for users using it. Whether utopians like yourself think people like it or not is irrelevant. It’s about survival. Not “corporate wallets”

Crack seems to be a product people gravitate towards, but that doesn't mean it's a good product or beneficial for the user.
Nobody said good product or beneficial to the user - the discussion is about people's preferences. Many people have very strong preferences for crack over not crack.
Since we’re discussing preferences, drug sellers have a strong preference for people choosing crack over not crack.

Furthermore, their preference is the one that is consequential. Once you are addicted and chemically compelled to choose crack over what is more or less torture, the amount of agency you have is relatively insignificant.

(Crack) consumers like crack. Nobody likes news feeds filled with ads.
> news feeds filled with ads.

The OP's point wasn't about ads but about the algorithmic newsfeed. The newsfeed is designed and optimized to make you like scrolling. So, yes people do like to scrolling but hate it when they realize that it might take you 20 minutes instead of 2 minutes to get to your best friends new baby announcement. Sure, ads contribute to that frustration, but they aren't the sole reason for it.

The key distinction is that news feeds' customers are advertisers, not the audience. News feeds were not built to maximize the audience's experience: it's an inherently consumer-adversarial technology.
What are those alternatives that you are comparing TV and newsfeed-powered social to? Point to a single product without newsfeed that lost to a product with newsfeed because of refusing to implement this feature.
MySpace?
If you are really suggesting MySpace lost to Facebook because of the lack of newsfeed, you should do your research. FB introduced the feed—in the sense that we’re talking about, as a non-chronological selection of content by an algorithm that maximises ad revenue—only after MySpace was no longer a threat. That’s when FB could get away with it, since the critical mass has been achieved and users had nowhere to run anymore.
2005 - Fox buys MySpace

2006 - Facebook introduces newsfeed

2006 - Facebook open to everyone (no need for college email)

2008 - FB unique users overtakes MySpace's

Facebook’s news feed in 2006 was not even remotely what’s being discussed in this branch.

It was a simple timeline of all of your friends’ actions. A raw chronological feed.

The outcry it caused was because it felt like stalking. The following dominance of Facebook did not have anything to do with people’s “revealed preferences” in favour of the algorithmic instrument being discussed (which individually selects content to appal or otherwise engage you so that you spend the most time and generate the most ad profit). News feed wasn’t that instrument—until MySpace went away and Facebook had users reliably locked in.

Facebook didn’t win because users liked the algorithmic news feed that maximises corporate profits by amplifying troll takes and aggravating our psychological well-being, Facebook won before that. It’s important to get the causal relationship right.