[ericd]

There is a way, it’s the reputation that builds over time and is associated with your brand. It’s why many people buy Toyota by default. It’s why we paid 5x the price for a Miele vacuum (which are awesome, by the way). It’s just that most people either can’t or just won’t pay a significant premium for it, so those products tend to be niche.

Of course, many execs look at brand value as something to be harvested for short term gains to the value of their options, but that’s a different problem.

[lazide]

PE buying a brand to ‘harvest the brand value’ has become extremely common in tools, and has ruined a lot of things.

[tshaddox]

They have more techniques too, like having store- or region-specific models that probably are all essentially the same but have different model numbers and slightly different feature sets just to make searching for reviews and price comparisons more difficult.

[NathanielK]

Sometimes they aren't essentially the same, but instead different in invisible ways. DeWalt grinders at Canadian Tire used to use plastic parts where metal was typically used. Outside of the different SKU it was difficult to tell the difference.

[lazide]

Walmart is notorious for this - they push really hard on suppliers to reduce prices, and suppliers usually do so by cutting quality. However everyone still pretends it’s the same (including identical outside appearance).

[jabl]

This so much. At least over here it's completely impossible to find reviews of whiteware (refrigerators, washing machines etc.), at most a handful on the local reseller homepage.

[saiya-jin]

even TVs suffer from this - tons of european models have different numbering/code, and unless you are die hard fan who understands various manufacturers product lines year by year, looking for products in Europe based on ie US reviews can get tricky.

[phpisthebest]

That is more to allow big box stores to advertise "price match" when they know no one else as the "exact same model"

See this Drill is DW345, we sell DW350, it is 5 better

[jabl]

Absolutely, it's everywhere, not just in tools. Brand X known for quality decides to, well like you said, drop production cost and 'harvest the brand value'. Then after a while when the reputation is sullied, the same conglomerate / holding company launches another 'upscale' brand. Rinse and repeat.

[dllthomas]

I almost feel like it should be deemed fraud or false advertising, although I have no idea how we should draw the line and ultimately we probably shouldn't.

[jamiek88]

That was liking riding along in your mind as you constructed your thought! :)

[benj111]

The problem then is if the brand cashes in on the reputation while moving production to China and using cheaper parts whilst charging the premium price still.

[eru]

In some sense, the longer the brand has been around, the less likely they are to pull an exit scam.

[lazide]

It’s the opposite in my experience - older brands have a hard time keeping up with newer trends and are more likely to be bought out by PE to ‘harvest value’, as they’re not as profitable right now.

[eru]

In order for something to become old, it has to have resisted attempts on its life so far.

[lazide]

That didn’t work out well for Craftsman (or Sears in general), Milwaukee, and a bunch of other brands!

[phpisthebest]

The tool market is an example of that not being the case

Craftsman, Portal Cable, Bosch, Stanley, the list goes on and on, of once independent brands that have been bought out by mass marketers to sell lower quality tools under those names

[lazide]

Another point - there is a difference between being 'old' (a 40 year old veteran solder is 'old', for instance, even if they're still in extremely good physical condition), and being 'old' as in 95 years old and can barely get out of bed.

From a PE/market perspective, the sweet spot seems to be the 95 year old with a good reputation that still carries weight.

I imagine it's because of the good spread between current price and expected returns, as the 'old' brands this is done with aren't usually very profitable, if at all.

[ericd]

Yeah, that's the exec short term gain thing. But it doesn't take too much research to check if that's happened before pulling the trigger, people are pretty vocal when that happens to their favorite brands.

[stevage]

Yeah just look at the recent reviews of Dyson vacuum cleaners. People buying the reputation but the quality has gone to shit.

[hgomersall]

I used to work with a mechanical engineer that was formerly at Dyson and he was rather scathing of their design policies, the tolerances being calculated badly and so on. The effect is everything feels "a bit loose".

[wizofaus]

Yep, I wouldn't buy Dyson again. If a manufacturer wants to preserve its reputation it shouldn't be making cordless vacuums with batteries that run out within 10-15 minutes.

[TheSpiceIsLife]

Not being able to trust brand reputation is the same problem, not a different problem.

[nuker]

Many execs have short term personal incentives, so short term gains suit fine.

[twoWhlsGud]

Re Miele - my sample size of one dates to 1987 and still is my main vac. So at some point in the past they were probably quite good (or I got really really lucky). FWIW

[ericd]

Ha awesome. Before I bought, I did some reading about vacuums that repair shops thought were good, Miele seemed to top the list at the time. It’s been great, despite suffering a decent amount of clumsiness-related abuse.